First post, introduction and a couple questions...
 

Hi, my name is Joe. I live in SoCal and I'm looking at buying a 1970 911T. The car has been updated to a short hood with what looks like turbo flares. I have been reading quite a few threads trying to find out what would have been required to do this conversion and what would be needed to go back to a long hood. It seems the threads I have read involving updating long hood cars are just met with "Noooo, don't do it."

Since I would possibly be buying a car that has already had it done, I am wondering what would have been the correct way to do this, so I can check to see that it has been done correctly and what would be involved in putting it back. It seems the car would be more valuable as the original long hood.

I have been into fox body Mustangs since I was a teenager, but fell out of it a few years ago. I have always loved Porsches and figured now is as good a time as any to jump in. I was looking at 996TT models, but I just happened to come across this 1970 T and it struck me for some reason. I am mainly looking for something that I enjoy driving again, along with getting to tinker.

A couple other projects from the past:

A stock rebuild for a daily driver 89 Mustang:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ecarmotor1.jpg
The car:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../orangecar.jpg

Another motor, a 331 stroker:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...tor0001_r1.jpg
That went in here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ainted0001.jpg

And a car I saw at a shop that I loved:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...x/27d38113.jpg

And the other main hobby:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...x/IMG_0348.jpg

Welcome to the madness! I am sure to convert the 1970T back to long hood splendor should not be very difficult. That green RS would be a good goal to work toward. One thing about the long hoods though, beware of the rust situation. Don't get more than you bargain for. Unless you are a restoration fanatic and welding artist with unlimited time and patience. I am also somewhat suspicious of the fact that the car your are interested in is a short hood conversion. That conversion is usually done by people less concerned with body rust if it does not show at the surface. They are into outside looks mostly, I am afraid. There could be hidden surprises.

It looks like the car was converted a while ago. From what I have read, it seemed it was a popular thing to do in the 80s and 90s when the cars weren't really 'vintage' at that point. I have a friend that has quite a bit of experience with older P cars that will help me check to see where the rust issues might be and if there is anything I have over looked. I know that with any cars that are 40+ years old there will be issues, but rust is definitely a concern. It seems there are plenty of replacement parts available for most things, but I'm definitely not planning that degree of restoration at this point. I would hate to dig into a car and find it held together by bondo and paint. I'm thinking that knowing how well the hood conversion was done would give me some hints about the car.

Edit: I originally saw the car for sale on CL, but notice it was also listed here. I could always post the ad link, but I'm not sure what the etiquette is quite yet.

Welcome.

Need some pics, asking price, and general condition of the car. I am thinking no go unless steeply discounted.

Also, you have exceeded your annual limit of Mustang pics in one post. :-)

Edit: It was one thing when an old T could be bought for $6-9 k. Now it is real strange with the increase in value. Maybe the few thousand dollars of parts and paint (DIY) would be well worth it?

Rust as porwolf says is real important to avoid.

Here is the link to the ad on here:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/651092-fs-matching-1970-911t-wide-body-14-500-obo.html

The car is local to me, which is probably the only reason I looked at it. I personally looked at it already, but will be giving it a final once over this weekend with a friend....although it would be nice to get some other feedback.

The car looks pretty nice.

My thoughts are that buying it puts you in an unfavorable position.

You live with it and have a Turbo look car that has 123 hp (my kids 2000 Corolla has 125) and then you have trouble selling it because of it being modified.

You put it back to where it was by paying through the nose (big, eye-opening money to pass scrutiny of a Porschephile) or work like a dog for several years doing it yourself.

That said, I do not know the market for the long nose cars in original condition. Even if you could make a few thousand dollars would the work, spend and stress be worth it?

Yes, I would definitely not use the term 'fast' to even remotely describe it. Having come from V8s and also seriously considering a 996TT, it's nowhere near those leagues, but there was something intangible that made it enjoyable to drive. If I did alter it back to stock, I would definitely do 90%+ of the work myself, which I actually enjoy. It seems like a nice car, but the price also seems high because it has been somewhat bastardized by purist terms. It seems if it was more 'stock' at that price it would be gone already.

I'm not looking to buy the car to make money....I just don't want to get stuck with something very undesirable. If I do go the route of making it more original, it would be done correctly.

There is a marketplace discussion board that can give you an idea of value.

Porsche Marketplace Discussion - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

You have your head on straight. If it does not feel right...........

I'm a '70 T owner, and would generally love to see that car returned to its original appearance. But if you really want a longhood, that would be a difficult and expensive place to start from. Even doing the work yourself, you're probably looking at close to $2500 just in the body panels alone (hood, both front fenders, both rear quarters, front and rear bumpers), and a long list of minor (but expensive) parts to recreate the light boxes, bumper trim, etc..

The one variable not addressed in the ad is the engine's condition. Mileage? Ever rebuilt? You say it runs well, which is good, but if it's really never been 'molested', it will probably need it sooner than later. That's another several thousand at a minimum.

Its condition, above and below does look quite good, rustwise and fit and finish-wise, and my feeling is that that car should probably stay the way it is.

The price listed is probably reasonable, for some market segments. I expect there are a lot of nonpurists out there who would love the look and consider that a pretty good deal. You should be able to find a better restoration candidate though for $5-6000 less than that, which would need far less in terms of replacement parts.

That's my $0.02, anyway.

Mike

Thats a pretty clean looking car. Maybe just throw a 3.2 in it and you'll have a nice driving short hood wide body.

-m

To start with, before I did anything else, that is probably what I would do and just drive it for a while. Motor swaps in these cars don't seem to terribly difficult. I love hp and 130 won't cut it for me in the long run. Although I would store the original motor to keep with the car because it would be a shame to separate them.

You might as well skip the 3.2 and put a 930 powerplant in there - then you will have the sack to back-up the looks! Of course, then you will want the 930 brakes etc., etc , etc.,

The 70 is 500 pounds lighter than the 2,800 pound 911 SC. A 3.2 would make it scoot like s*it flying off of a shovel.

Keep in mind that a 911 engine build can cost more than an entire mustang!;)

I'm better off financially now than I was 10 years ago. That polished stroker motor had at least 10k into it and was built to run 600+ rwhp. That was my main reason for getting away from cars at the time...the car was turning into a snowball from hell and I couldn't keep up.

I like the idea of a 3.2 swap or something similar, running it for a while and cleaning it up.

Ya', I was just doing a little chain yanking - the 930 engine would be overkill for that chassis and the cost (given a donor engine would need to be built) would exceed the cost of the whole car by a longshot - still, would be an asswhipper, though (as would the 3.2) . . .

Having had rust issues with all my Porsches before my 79 SC I looked at the pictures of the car posted in the For Sale section. I am not sure what to say about the area under the rocker panels. A good poking with a small sharp screw driver into the area behind the outside rocker panel may give you clues. Maybe you could pull back the carpeting on the inside bottom of the doors to see also. Then there are the sensitive areas on the bottom of both the front and rear glass screens. But it is difficult to get there without major interior upholstery removal. I would look very carefully on the outside to see any paint irregularities, however small. The rear torsion bar area looks OK to me, but I am not an expert. Also the inside of the front door cowlings where you see the very rear end of the front fender could be a problem area. The hood under the emblem looks like peeling bondo, but should be an easily fixable problem.

Overall I am still concerned about what the PO tried to do with the car. He kept the original engine unmodified but invested rather heavily in superficial outside appearance. What's with that? The engine just does not match the image. And fiberglass fenders are a cheap way to change the wheel wells. But maybe underneath are the original steel fenders? I think the car could use some substantial work if you intend to make it a real classic performance car like one out of Magnus Walker's stable.

We will definitely be doing some poking around. I know these cars have rust issues and I would hate to get stuck with one that is hanging together from paint and bondo.

And, you might consider spending the $14,500 asking price on a decent SC (78-85) or even Carrera (86 plus) and with minor body changes focus on the engine. That area has much more accessible parts available. And then there is the 930 turbo area before 1978 to consider. After all, Porsche started galvanizing the bodies in 1975. Much less rust since then, especially if the car spent it's life in a southeren region.

My buddy, who is heavily into the older cars, is making the same suggestion that I buy an SC.

I have a '71 S that was converted to steel shorthood, RS flares with IROC stuff and ducktail. A fenderbender resulted in an all fiberglass street legal autocross car.... many, many years later. It is still a work in progress but it was really only a couple years ago that it was sorted to a reasonable degree. So that would be about 16 years. Yeah, no budget.

And Point Mugu is no longer an autocross venue, so it is a canyon carver for the weekends I am home from school.

The early cars are special. Whether you should go with an 'updated' car or not versus an SC would depend on the motor in the car and how much the car retains the light weight, nimble feel of the early car. My car is still relatively narrow and has a 2.7 RS spec motor which was there before. Being a '71 means no smog. :)

I definitely like the idea of that alone, that if I do just continue on the performance route for it, that being a 70, it's a light car to start with and I can with it as I please with no smog issues. Obviously a 3.2 in that car would be handful without at least some basic supporting running gear.

Which trans is typically used with a 3.2? What other motor swaps would be good candidates for that car?

My motor (should) has (have) 210 hp @ 6300 rpm and 188 ft-lbs of torque @ 5500 rpm. The S cams make it mild until about 4000 rpm. My type 911 gearbox (same as in the '70) handles it fine. Not sure on the numbers for a 3.2.

So, is that a bored out 2.4 motor?

It is a 7R case, pistons and cylinders are the MAHLE RS ones, 90mm, with a 70.4mm stroke crank. So, yes, the real RS was basically just a bored out 2.4. The 7R case has more reinforcement, though. I think the spacecam in the MFI pump was unique to the RS compared to the S. Not sure though.

I do not think that my engine has anything more than the 8.5:1 compression. The motor was built long ago and we don't know much about it besides the receipts.

Someday I might backdate it, though. Maybe go RSR. At least the rear bumper needs to be trimmed.

A stock 3.2 would be fine on the 901 gear box. Just have to be careful you don't drag race it as 1st gear can be delicate. The conversion is fairly straight forward and is common. The running gear should be thoroughly inspected, but should be fine until you start getting into more performance/track driving. You will want to upgrade it then.

you could really tear into your stock engine and get it whooped up, but I believe that is the more pricey route than buying a decent used 3.2 + extras. You could put a 3.6 in it ;)

So I ended up purchasing the car and bring it home Saturday...going to drive it for a while and do some research on motor swap options.

Coingartulations! I'm sure it will be a lot of fun getting it up to snuff!

Thanks...like I mentioned before, this is my first P-car, so hopefully, it goes well haha. I enjoy wrenching on cars and this one looks like fun. It sure is a blast to drive and I can't wait to take it out for a little more than a test drive. I think my buddy will point me in the right direction. I ordered the motor building book off of this site to read up on the basics. I think for what I got it for, it's a pretty solid little car, even though it may not be all original. I will see where it takes me and just enjoy the ride.

Pics!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rsche/Pic1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../rtfrntqtr.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...lftrearqtr.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../intdriver.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...he/engine2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rsche/dash.jpg

Cool. Now you just need some IROC bumpers (loosing the heavy impact ones) and some real seats. :)

The bumpers are actually fiberglass replicas. The hood is the only steel body panel. I'm looking into something that is a little more sleek though and I would like to find some seats. Not sure if I want something factory style or Recaros or the like.

Nice. Could be camera/angle, but looks like zero/positive camber in the rear? Might be a good idea to corner balance/align, or at least check . . .

Welcome!

Thanks, one of the first projects is going to be go through the suspension bushings and clean up everything/replace what's needed, then have it aligned. Doing some research on stuff I want to run.

Great -- keep us posted!

Nice looking car, Bring it back to long hood. Try RSR and origional color. Jeolous of the widebody.

Yes, personally, I like the flares, so I may just convert back to a long hood and keep the flares. The car was originally metallic blue, which can be seen in some very strategic areas if you look, but otherwise the paint is pretty good. I'm not a huge fan of the color. I think my favorite I have seen is Dolphin Gray. The rear flares seem to have been done very well.

Metallic blue is great. Much better than the commonplace red.

If you make it a longhood you will need new fenders, which means new flares if those are Turbo fenders, or it means cutting and pasting the flares.