new to 911's

[air_cooled]

Hey, I have been lurking here for a while and it seems there are a bunch of very knowledgeable and helpful folks on here unlike another Porsche Forum I signed on to that well never got reply's or even many looks. Maybe its the wall of text I seem to produce.

There has been a Porsche in the family as long as I can remember. 914, 924, 944, Boxster S. I've driven them all, though they have been owned by others. I have been looking myself for a 911. At first I was looking for a mid to late 80's variety. My brother who has the 944 and Boxster suggested I look a bit newer for the same or maybe even less money and maybe less miles.

I have seen over the years many, many 80's 911's with hundreds of thousands of miles. It's nothing to see 150,00 miles or more. Now I started looking as new as '94 and older and although its not ten years different the mileage seems to be much less 50k,60k,70k. Some much higher but not too high.

Some questions about this and what I've heard, remember I've never driven a 911, a '69 912 was the nearest.

Did the greater horsepower in the later model years make the car more difficult/challenging to drive? or less fun on the street? "Could get squirrely if you don't know what your doing" "more power more touchy in the corners" that kind of thing. So people drove them less? Prices also seem like they are near the same where I've been looking on-line. Low $20k for '83-'87 with 140,000m+ Mid $20k's for a 80,000 '93?

Are there more bugs/issues/ghosts in the 90's then the 80's?
More difficult to work on?
Parts more expensive?
Greater variations from year to year in the 90's then 80's?

Oh and I want to stay older then '95 so I don't need to go through the EPA emissions here in Illinois. Which allows me, if I choose to upgrade, w/o worry of passing their test.
I've more question too but figure this wall will get the ball rolling.

[timchar]

The SC's and carreras are great cars, the 964 is also nice. 964's can have oil leak issues if not addressed. I checked two that leaked tons of oil. How much people drive them is all over the map. Most higher mileage cars have a rebuild. My 86 has 183k on it and runs great. The 911 May take a little more skill to drive then say a 944. 911 has way more power than 912. Do some searches on this forum for more info. The 911 is way more car then most you have driven. I had a 944 and it was ok, love the looks and performance of 911 . Good luck, Tim

[wwest]

If I were buying today in your MY range a '95 968 convertible would top my list.

Second would be a '78 or newer 911 Targa (I'm 6'2"), an '88 special edition preferably.

[Dave Colangelo]

If I am reading your questions right I think this is the answer, or at least what I have observed.

The 911 is with out a doubt a classic car. It is one of the oldest cars still in production in a form relatively similar to its original design. When answering this question you must remember where the 911 came from. It was designed to be a new 356. The idea was to make a car that was fast, comfortable, and drivable. But at the same time some thing that could be raced. The original 911's were far simpler than the new ones. That may seem obvious but what you understand from that, is that these days those cars tend to attract the very DIY kind of man. People who want to restore the car, do the work them selves and really get to know the insides. This gets less and less possible as the cars get newer.
You must also remember that older cars have been around much longer and have simply had more time to travel those many miles. A great deal of those miles can also be accounted to fun runs and weekend drives. For example, I have a friend who has a 996, its a nice car, he drives it every day from his house to the train station and back at night. He puts maybe 30 miles on the car a week, 40 if he has to get the kids form school. I on the other hand will take my 78 Targa out on a nice Saturday for a fun run and easily put 200 miles on it getting lost in the mountains for a few hours. Thus the older cars tend to have many more miles because although they are not necessarily driven as often, I find they tend to be driven much farther when they are run.

In comparison to the 944 there is no comparison. I DD a 924s (944 motor in a 924 body) back in high school. it was a fun little car but has no where near the power of my 911. If I had to make a comparison, I would say the 944 is a sensible, some what reserved sports car. Stock, it is fun but not crazy. My 78 SC Targa is a raw power machine. To get around the suburbs it is more HP than I ever need and is a blast to drive in the nice weather. But you cant go wrong with either.

Now to answer your questions specifically,

I find the 180HP in my SC to be more than I ever need. Even by today's standards the car is quick. I would love a Carrera or 964 as well, but as an air cooled purist I would only go as far as the 993.

You will always get the carb VS CIS VS digital injection arguments. Carrera and post had DFI which has its own electrical issues, and carbs have there own issues. Its a very pick your poison situation. CIS from what I have heard has the most issues, however I have yet to have a problem with the CIS in my 78.

The later cars are harder to work on for many reasons. In a nut shell the older cars are simply, simpler.

Parts are parts, it all depends on what breaks. Our host here sells almost every thing if you need it. Think of it this way, if your ECU goes on an 86 Carrera it will cost you, now there are no ECU's on the SC's but if some part of the complex system goes on the CIS it will cost you. The cars also share many parts, and many older cars have newer parts to make them more reliable (i.e. Carerra chain tensioners in an SC)

In summary I will say this, and note this has a lot to do with where I live(suburban america). The new 993/996/997's tend to be garage queens of local business men. The product of a recent divorce or there weekend vice. The 911/SC/Carrera/964's tend to be the car of the enthusiast. The man who knows the difference between the torsion tube and the torsion bar. The kind of man who has grease under his finger nails and gets a torque wrench for Christmas.


Are you looking to get one, if you are the most important question is what will you be using it for. Weekend fun car, track warrior, DD, or a project.

sorry for rambling....

Regards
Dave

[megerian]

Well said, David

[szyzygy]

I prefer the older cars, personally. The new 993/996/997's style is cool, but I just love the old 70's/80's body styling more. Maybe it's because I grew up as a kid in the late 70's and 80's.
Plus I feel like I can work on the older ones myself, saving $$$ and learning about it. There are a lot of very helpful people on this website who know the older cars in depth.
I was never a "car-guy" before I got my car, but I'm loving learning all about my ride. So satisfying to be able to do stuff yourself.

[kidrock]

Back in the 80's, I exclusively drove and wrenched on VW's because of their simplicity. I had a boss that owned a brand new 1986 Carrera, and it blew my mind.

If he had asked me to work on it, I would have told him that he was smoking crack.

Today, the aircooled 911 seems relatively simple to work on. Go figure.

It has been mentioned that the modern renditions are more technologically advanced, and almost impossible for the typical shadetree mechanic to competently wrench on. It's amazing what time and technology will do.

I'm willing to bet that in 20-30 years, people will be talking about how simple today's cars are.

[Dave Colangelo]

The issue with today's cars is not how complicated they are, its how tight some of the places are to get to and how complex some of the pieces are. An SC or Carrera can be primarily disassembled with a 10mm a 12mm socket, a Philips head and a flat head screw driver and a good set of Alan keys. Many cars today require a good deal of strange shaped tools, strange size wrenches or things like star keys or other tools no one has. On that note many air cooled enthusiasts dont like the idea of water in or near an engine.

All that considered typically speaking, and I have not worked on any new 9811's, many new cars require a great deal of plastic to be removed before anything can even be seen let alone diagnosed. National Geographic did a great episode in there Mega factories series on the Porsche facility, it is an amazing place but you can see how complex the cars are now and how many special machines it takes to get them together.

Regards
Dave

[szyzygy]

yep. so tight to get in there.
Seems pretty stupid to do that just to keep the engine in the back.
i hate the fact that they charge you $90 just to hook the engine computer up to the machine to tell the dude what's wrong with it. Seems like a total scam.

Originally Posted by Dave Colangelo

The issue with today's cars is not how complicated they are, its how tight some of the places are to get to and how complex some of the pieces are. An SC or Carrera can be primarily disassembled with a 10mm a 12mm socket, a Philips head and a flat head screw driver and a good set of Alan keys. Many cars today require a good deal of strange shaped tools, strange size wrenches or things like star keys or other tools no one has. On that note many air cooled enthusiasts dont like the idea of water in or near an engine.

All that considered typically speaking, and I have not worked on any new 9811's, many new cars require a great deal of plastic to be removed before anything can even be seen let alone diagnosed. National Geographic did a great episode in there Mega factories series on the Porsche facility, it is an amazing place but you can see how complex the cars are now and how many special machines it takes to get them together.

Regards
Dave

[jrolstin]

Really good points Dave, you got it spot on as far as differences between the cars and their owners.

[air_cooled]

Wow thanks for all the great responses. I'm not lost under the hood of most older cars. My '94 525i has 235,000 and there isn't anything I wouldn't attempt to repair on my own, I've had it since '98 and 65kmile.

For me complications seems to come, I have found, with electronics and what they control. I'm grateful I have not had those issues with the BMW. Now when I was in the shop working on Forklifts CAT was using Peugeot engines that had wet sleeves in the block rather then cylinders bored in. Pretty neat. Then Cat merged with Mitsu and stuff began to change then came timing belts and coil-packs, potentiometers for the throttle rather then a wire. Now with CARB we use laptops to read and clear codes. Again these are Forklifts running LP. So like its been said the newer the more advanced not necessarily better.

From my general reading I was thinking the last of a model cycle was to be about the best of the model cycle, not the first as the first has bugs that need to be exorcized.

My plan is for a DD, about 35 miles/day with some extended rides on the weekends.
Again looking between '83 (last of the SC) -'93 (last of the Carrera) 2WD, 5spd, Coupe, NOT BLACK.

Again thanks for all the great responses, I'll keep reading and as the questions come I'll be sure to ask.

One last thing there is a guy on eBay from TX that has a great selection most days. Has anyone had dealings with him or his cars? Feedback looks good and he has been listing for years. Just thought if I saw something I liked I'd be willing to fly to buy and drive back to Chicagoland.

[Drisump]

I think you guys are a little harsh on 993 owners, there are quite a few out here owned by "enthusiasts" with grease under their nails.....more exensive grease mind you. It seems the more valuable the car, the more likely it will fall into the hands of a "collector" looking to make money on the "investment". Realizing that every mile driven costs them $$$ in future resale price, kind of kills whatever joy they get out of driving it. I met a guy with a 993 Turbo who had done a total of 500 miles in four years of ownership. And that was his only interesting car. My 911 is a 3.2 Carrera 231hp variant and most people would say that from the factory the cars are well sorted, and in most ways, NOT a handful to drive.....that being said, DO NOT "LIFT" in the middle of a fast corner. If you do, the outstanding rear grip of the 911 chassis can suddenly evaporate. I think this can be said of all 911's but the earlier ones (much lower HP) were even more prone to this. Anyway, they are great cars.... can't wait to get mine out of "bed" for the season. Cheers

[Josh D]

Don't rule out '78-'82 SC's. These are great cars. I myself prefer the pre-lambda CIS ('78-'79 US and all ROW) for it's tuning ability and big port heads/intake runners.

When I was on the hunt, I was set on a 3.2 Carrera coupe, but ended up with an '80 SC coupe. I don't feel that I gave up anything with the SC.

[Rot 911]

Originally Posted by air_cooled

Wow thanks for all the great responses. I'm not lost under the hood of most older cars. My '94 525i has 235,000 and there isn't anything I wouldn't attempt to repair on my own, I've had it since '98 and 65kmile.
One last thing there is a guy on eBay from TX that has a great selection most days. Has anyone had dealings with him or his cars? Feedback looks good and he has been listing for years. Just thought if I saw something I liked I'd be willing to fly to buy and drive back to Chicagoland.

I have owned BMW's and would have to say the 911's up to 1989 are just as easy, if not easier to work on. I have done everything including rebuilding the engine on my 911 so I guess I can speak from experience.

You must be talking about Victory Motors. I have heard both good and bad about them. The fact that I even know about them tells you they have come up for discussion a number of times on this board. Do a search on them and just read the threads.

[Dave Colangelo]

I dont know much about Victory Motors but I know a guy up here in PA by me who just sold them a really nice White Carrera with a brown interior. I think it was an 86. If your budget is 20K you can have just about any SC for that and most Carrera's. I will say I love my SC and have yet to have any serious issues with the CIS system which is what many people dont like about that car. I happen to have a 78 which is pre-Lambda as mentioned above. I would have no issues with buying another SC. Although I have my heart set on getting a Carrera coupe next.

There is one thing I will say about these cars being DD's. I have always driven Porsche's as my DD. I had a 924s back in high school and when im home from college in the summers I drive the 911 now. They are a blast to drive and I always look for excuses to take the car out. I commonly get asked about there reliability and I say this. The car is no less reliable than any thing on the road but does take a bit more work to keep that way. The fan belt, spark plugs, distro cap and rotor, air and oil filter must be changed religiously along with the oil. The cars will have small issues that should be tended to as they come up. If you do the work your self they are no more expensive to own than other cars, as a matter of fact my 911 is cheaper than most cars to own. I look at it this way many people would go out and buy a nice civic, with some options thats about 20K. My 911 was 9K, running and had just had a fresh rebuild. Im already 11K richer than the average joe and I have a Porsche. The car needed a few minor pieces, nothing serious. A few hundred bucks and every thing is up to snuff and DD able. Still 10K richer than civic guy and still driving a Porsche. As long as you keep up the maintenance and work the car will be the most rewarding machine you have ever owned.

Regards
Dave

[kidrock]

IMHO, you will pay a premium with the "guy on eBay from TX". If you're patient and search, you will easily find a vehicle in similar condition and probably save yourself anywhere from $2K to $5K. Just my .02 cents.

And as Mr. Colangelo stated, these cars are great DD's....in fact, they NEED to be driven. Everyone on this board will tell you that the more you drive them, the fewer issues will arise. Oftentimes, minor problems arise with the ones that are not driven frequently.