Considering A/C Hose Change & Upgrade - OK for newbie project?
 

Hey Guys,

The A/C lines on my '87 Carrera leak at an alarming rate, and my wrench said it's time to replace the 40 feet of hoses. He quoted me $1600 for the work - $700 for parts and $900 for labor. Since it's so labor-intensive, it's an attractive project to do by myself, but I want to make sure I'm not biting off more than I can chew. Is this something that a newbie can handle? I've done some maintenance to my car in the past, but I've never worked on A/C.

Do you guys recommend OEM or Rennaire hoses? I also see that there are several upgrade options for A/C. I'm a firm believer in fixing what's broken (the hoses in this case), measure the performance and then make further upgrades if necessary. But, is there anything that I should do "while I'm in there"?

Thanks!

Hose replacement is entirely possible, i replaced all mine in my 84 930. I would recommend the smaller diameter hoses sold by Rennaire? as this would make the job easier. I then got the AC people to pressure check and recharge the sytem and all was well.

Rennaire
 

Rennaire folks are top gun++++++

Two upgrades I did on our '86:

1. Procooler.

2. High flow evaporator.

Great improvements.

Also, re-tune your A/C temp switch for an 8-10 degree compressor "off" cycle which will prevent most evaporator freeze-up(s).

Good luck,

gerry

Changing out my a/c hoses was the first major project I did on my car. I also added a supplemental condenser in the front left fender, and a Pro Cooler.

It's a VERY do-able DIY job, but it's dirty and time-consuming. I was amazed at the amount of dirt and grime that came out along with the hoses. But, at the end of the day, the project turned out very well, and it was a very satisfying project.

Rennaire and Griffiths are both sources for quality parts and information.

One thing I would suggest is that you consider having a shop with Porsche knowledge/expertise do the evacuation and recharge.

Good luck...and post pictures of your project!

Thanks for all the encouragement, guys. Is this particular topic covered in Wayne's book, or could you recommend a thread to follow along for instructions? Also, how many hours do you think it would take a novice to change the hoses?

Another concern is that my car is setting without an engine or transmission in it, so I don't have a way to get the A/C discharged right now. Any ideas on this?

It's not covered in 101 Projects and yes there are multiple threads on AC upgrades. Here's a good one to start with:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/623648-ultimate-ac-thread-2011-a.html

As already stated, replacing the hoses is not that complicated, tedious and dirty for sure, but not techically complicated. I replaced my entire system with the Rennaire system with barrier hoses, serpentine evaporator, desert duty front condensor, Sanden 507 compressor and Procooler over a couple of weekends and that included adding an Elephant Racing oil cooler fan. If you're just replacing the hoses and keeping all the other components you should easily be able to do it over a weekend. Really the only technically challenging part is charging the system because that requires special tools and expertise.

For hoses you also have several options. Most likely you'll want barrier hoses which are available from Rennaire, Griffiths or Pelican. You could also take your old hoses to a local AC parts outfit and have new ones made up.

For the what else to do "while I'm in there" there are a ton of options. Slippery slope for sure. The ultimate AC thread should give you lots of reading and ideas for upgrades.

Installing the hoses without the engine and tranny in place will be easier than if they were installed. BUT you will need to figure out a way to seal the hose ends that will eventually connect to the compressor to keep the inside of the hoses clean and dry.

Zimms might also sell a full set of hoses for your car. I got mine frome them when installing their fender condenser kit. Check them out as well as Rennaire and Griffiths.

No way to purge your system legally unless someone comes over with equipment.

If the hoses leak at an alarming rate can it be assumed is is empty right now?

Be extra cautious around the evaporator when disconnecting hoses. The evap box has fastener clips (on my 81) that can easily fall into the abyss also.

If you are really anal you can squeeze into the bottom of the evaporator and 409 and gently brush the fuzz that has built up on the intake side.

So I think the challenge for me to begin this project is having the system properly discharged, unless it's already "discharged" from the hose leaks - as Bob has pointed out.

Any Pelicans in the Southeast Pennsylvania area that could help a brutha out? :D

Guys - I've been reading through some old threads, and I can't find any threads document hose replacement. Can someone point me in the right direction or give me a run down of what's involved?

I'd like to make sure that I have the right tools for the job before I dive in. Will I need to get the car on jack stands? Would I need to remove any body panels?

Thanks guys :D

There's really no magic to it. The job is pretty straightforward.

1. Have the system properly evacuated.

2. Get the car safely up on jack stands.

3. Loosen the fittings at the compressor, condensers, receiver/drier, etc. Once you have the fittings removed, you should cover the male fittings on the compressor, receiver/drier and condensers with properly fitting plastic caps. If you can't get the caps, use some duct tape and then zip-tie the duct tape so it won't come loose.

4. Remove the various clamps that hold the hoses in place as they run from the back of the car to the front, and vice-versa.

5. Once all the fittings are loosened and the clamps removed, start snaking the hoses out of their nooks and crannies, and remove them. Try to avoid cutting to remove them, but if you have to cut go ahead. Keep the pieces together, however, so you can match them with the new hoses. It's probably not a bad idea to label each hose so you know where it was installed.

6. Lay the old hoses out on your garage floor. Take your new hoses and line them up next to the old hoses, and match them up by length.

7, Clean all of the crud and grime that has accumulated along the hose runs.

8. Take the longest new hose and start to install it into the car. Be sure the end of each hose is capped to keep them clean and dry. Fit the hose along its route, but don't clamp it down or attach the ends yet. Once you're satisfied that the hose is properly in place, attach both ends to their proper fittings. Be sure you leave enough slack, or a loop, at each end so that nothing binds and the connector can be removed/loosened if necessary. Then start putting the clamps back in place along the hose run. I started from the approximate center of the hose, and worked toward each end.

9. Once you have all of the hoses in place and have everything clamped and tightened down, take it to an a/c shop with Porsche knowledge and have the system evacuated and recharged.

One thing you might find is that your clamps will be too big because the hose you're using has a smaller outside diameter than the OEM hose. Home Depot has a solution -- you can find padded clamps in the hardware "specialty drawers" that will fit the new hose. You can also use single-hole clamps designed for thin-wall electrical conduit in places where the padded clamps won't work.

It's a good idea to replace the receiver/drier while you're replacing the hoses. Our host likely sells them. I replaced mine with a Procooler and the results were noticeably better. You should have the new receiver/drier on hand when you start the project.

You shouldn't need any special tools -- just some open-end wrenches to loosen fittings and some screwdrivers and hex drivers for the clamps. Be sure to use the "double wrench" technique when loosening or tightening fittings -- one wrench on the hose connector, and another wrench pulling in the opposite direction on the fitting. This will keep you from busting fittings off.

HTH.

Scott

Scott - Thank you very much for the write-up. This is exactly what I was looking for. I think I'll give it a go :)

Andy: It's not a tough job....just dirty and time consuming. If you have decent DIY skills, you shouldn't have any problems.

And don't be afraid to ask for help here. Good luck, and post pictures!

Andy: I just had an idea -- you're in Norristown, PA and Griffiths is in Franklin, NJ. This means that you're about 65 miles away. Charlie Griffiths is THE MAN when it comes to Porsche a/c. You might consider contacting Charlie and maybe even taking a drive to his shop. If you purchase your parts from him, he'll be available to you for questions, tech support, etc. He might even be able to recommend a good shop to do the evacuation/recharge.

HTH.

Scott

Scott - Interest point. I'll give Griffiths a call.

I'm looking over the cost of the A/C lines, and it looks like there's a pretty wide spread. Rennaire is the least expensive at $339 for a barrier hose kit. Griffiths is next which is $560 when you add up all the individual hoses you need to purchase from them. I don't even want to add up the price of OEM hoses... :o

Is there $220 worth of difference between Rennaire and Griffiths? Does anyone know if Griffiths provides a discount if you purchase a hose kit form them?

i just purchased new hoses, new evap, front condensor, dryer and fan from griff. now there are 3 boxes sitting in my garage with parts waiting to be installed. i'll get the system evacuated next week & then start (the weather is crap here in sydney right now anyway so it's probably just as well the cab is off the road).

however, after tracing my a/c hoses through the car i can see a massive challenge coming up. i don't think bolting the parts together will be the problem, particularly with the great instructions griff sent with the parts, but routing the hoses through some of the more crammed areas of the car will not be much fun.

i am particularly not looking forward to routing the lines in the engine bay going forward and where the lines pass over the washer bottle. :)

that said i'm sure it is all doable.

Hi Geoz - Do you mind sharing what you paid for hoses and receiver/dryer? I have an '87 Carrera, and I imagine I'd need the same parts.

Thanks!

Andy:

Don't bother with the OEM hoses.

You'll have to decide if Charlie's expertise and potential assistance are worth the extra $200 to you. Griffiths' stuff can be a bit more expensive, but the quality is first rate. His advice and help could be invaluable, but you'll have to make that call.

Scott

If I remember correctly (and it's been at least 10 years), I used an electrician's snake (fish tape) to help route the hoses through some of the tighter squeezes. I'd run the snake through the opening, tape the hose to the end of the snake, and then pull it through. IIRC, one hose was a particular PITA, but I don't remember any of them being impossible or causing me undue concern or work.

HTH.

thanks for the tip.
that is indeed my plan. i was actually going to tape the snake to the hose I'm pulling out & then use it to pull the new hose in. good thing the new hoses are actually thinner than the old ones, and it should be easier to route them.

as i said, it should be doable. SmileWavy

$200 probably well spent, considering thier business is close to your home and could provide invaluable advice and know how. Go visit the shop.
I'm currently on the fence about removing my a/c. I'm leaning towards removing it. I have a/c in my service truck and other car.
Anyways good luck with your project. I'm sure you'll be able to do it your self. Just take your time and think things out. It will be a great feeling after you complete the job.
Dean

The only real PITA on replacing the hoses are the 2 in the DS fender well going to the front condensor. I just tied a length of cord to the old ones prior to extraction, but the fish tape would work just as well - maybe better.

Thanks for starting this thread, Polizei, I need to replace hoses on my 88, there's a major bulge on the line leading from the compressor.
And, thanks to all the contributors for the info on how to do the job. This is another example of the generosity that is so common on this forum.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/clap.gif

I don't mean to "toot my own horn," but if you search on my screen name you'll see I've posted on several a/c projects. Maybe some of my experiences will help those of you in this thread who are about to embark on the "slippery slope" of a/c improvement. Another VERY knowledgeable a/c person here on the BBS is mthomas58. He's done a lot of a/c work on his car, and has had good results!

HTH.

Scott

I'm thinking of the same update on my 89 which has not been charged in about 10!years. I'm thinking of the "simple" hose replace and maybe a conversion from R12, I think I need the hoses, conv kit, and new dryer. I just want cool does not need to freeze.

Did the hoses on my 87 last fall after I had a single hose fail. (the one attached to the passenger side hood hinge going from the compressor to the large condensor. Very doable, no special tools req'd. Least cost method would be to remove all 5 hoses and then have the fittings "re-hosed". You could do for less than $200 probably. I actually kept all my old fittings after cutting off the hoses. You'll find the new fittings aren't are heavy duty or nice looking (in my opinion) as the oem fittings. Other threads mention plenty of resources on who can put on new hose. If I wasn't in a big hurry, thats what I'd do.
For better AC, thats opens a huge can of opinions. If you keep the car, most people eventually rip it all out and decide that a newer car with AC is best. I keeping my AC investment minimal.

If all you want is "cool" and not "freeze my a$$ off," changing out the hoses may be all you need to do. I'd suggest that you stay with R12 if possible. Also, you might consider Griffiths' Kuehl Vent; it's designed to bring cool air out from under the dash and into the passenger compartment. I have it, and it's a noticeable improvement.

As a follow up, I spoke with Griff at Griffiths A/C, and he talked me into upgrading beyond just a hose replacement. I was budgeting $1600 to have a shop replace the hoses for me. Griff offers a kit for $1200 that he says will blow considerably colder than stock and has been installed by several folks:

911 special 1984 to 1989 package [911special1984to1989package] : Griffiths Technical Inc

Hoses, seals, o-rings and new oil would run me $600 anyways. So the way I look at it, I'm spending another $600 for GOOD A/C. I guess that's not bad. Griff assured me that a novice could conservatively do-it-yourself over two weekends. He provides thorough documentation and technical support during the week. I'll let you guys know the results.

Thanks for your direction!

Andy, there are a couple of hose-shields on the driver's side hose that runs from the rear condenser, driver's side, up to the front condenser. This is a #8 size hose, and one of the longest. I mention this because I just replaced all of the hoses on my 88'. When I made this particular hose, I ended-up cutting the two shields off the original hose and putting them on the new one. There are probably those who would think it's not necessary to have them, but I figured they were there for a reason........... Anyway; one protects the hose as it leaves the rear condenser and wraps around the rear lid hinge. The other is under the car, where this hose comes down from the engine compartment and transitions across the bottom of your car. Good luck with your project. I debated for a while about other modifications to the A/C, but in the end it seems that the volume of air is the key. I read so many posts about 911 a/c upgrades my head was spinning. Sure would like to know if you think there is any significant difference with the new evap. and front condenser. Good luck with the project. You're about to get really dirty.

I had a look at the hoses and decided to have a go at them with the pressure washer before I start removing them. ;)

Not surebhow much good it will do but I recon it will remove some dirt at least.