Idea for an outlaw 911.

[924CarreraGTP]

Okay hooligans, I got bored on the 928 forum, so I thought I would bring my ray of sunshine to the 911 forum. This is what I want to see. A 1970 or '71 911 with a 3.3 liter 930 Turbo engine. How come nobody builds outlaw sleepers like this? If somebody does, show me.

[Jack Olsen]

Hank Watts has a beautiful 1972 911 with a 993 twin turbo motor in it.

[haycait911]

one day I'd like to do a turbo engine in a stock-bodied SWB. now THAT would be a sleeper. I'm up to a webbered 3.4 with N2O, so maybe a turbo will be next. on six inch rims

[jrolstin]

Originally Posted by Jack Olsen

Hank Watts has a beautiful 1972 911 with a 993 twin turbo motor in it.

That is indeed beautiful.

[ghost1001]

I almost went this route with my narrow body 1976 911…..the shop that was building my car advised me not to.

The issue is adhesion to the road. The owner also let me know that the last 2 narrow body turbo cars they built lasted less than 1 month on the road. Of course driver experience, caution and or error, play a BIG part in this equation. As this was my first build I took the recommendation and went wide body to fit some good size tires under there.

I would like to try a SWB with a small displacement turbo motor in it….maybe a 2.2l turbo with 300 or so hp. I think that would be fun.
Even at that I would probably do a little custom flair on the back to fit 8” or 9” wheels.

Here is where I ended up on my “narrow turbo” project:

[jpnovak]

Its been done a few times. Here are a few that are in recent memory.

Marty's early turbo



73.5 911t cis turbo

ONe of my favorites.



Introducing my '73 Turbo Hotrod

356 with 930 engine.


I seem to recall that John Walker had an early 930 powered blue longhood speedster made from an early targa. Could not find the thread on that one. Goes back a LONG time.

[924CarreraGTP]

Originally Posted by haycait911

one day I'd like to do a turbo engine in a stock-bodied SWB. now THAT would be a sleeper. I'm up to a webbered 3.4 with N2O, so maybe a turbo will be next. on six inch rims

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. A real outlaw sleeper. A car with 6 inch fuchs that you can't really tell isn't an early 911T or E. My 1970 911 has 5.5x14 rims and 135/14s on the front. The backs are 165/14s. It handles like it's on rails. I plan to change it, but when it had 15x7 inch ATS cookie cutters it felt kinda heavy, dead, and lumbery. With this wheel and tire combo it feels more like a 356 I once drove. Only it breaths fire out of that 2.2 liter flat 6.
It would be cool to see somebody hand build an intercooler for the turbo and cram a 3.3 into a totally stock looking early long hood coupe. Just to have it for an occasional joyride. Who cares if it's scary? I recently saw a 600hp twin plugged 930 from the '80s. It's a scary monster too, but I would rather be scared at times than be bored.

[924CarreraGTP]

The '73 Turbo Hotrod is freaking awesome!

[Jeff Higgins]

My friend Barret (that's my blue car parked next to him as he pulls out):

[sc_rufctr]

I like the concept but...

I've thought about a very clean and original impact bumper car with a 993 twin turbo stuffed in the back.
I'd do it without any spoilers or anything like that. Stock wheels and updated brakes and suspension to suit.
The idea behind using an impact bumper car is to make it look as ordinary as possible.

In other words not so not so much a hot rod but a real "sleeper"

[will hung]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

I like the concept but...

I've thought about a very clean and original impact bumper car with a 993 twin turbo stuffed in the back.
I'd do it without any spoilers or anything like that. Stock wheels and updated brakes and suspension to suit.
The idea behind using an impact bumper car is to make it look as ordinary as possible.

In other words not so not so much a hot rod but a real "sleeper"

I was thinking something very similar. There is a member here that has a mid-70's 911 with a 930 engine swap. It's guards red with a flat lid.

my first set of forged wheels

I just love the concept because most people assume they are overweight, underpowered slugs.

[lin7310948]

not a turbo but a 434 cubic inch all aluminum dart small block chevy roller motor with efi making almost 600 chp in a 71 coupe weighing about 2300 pounds.

[jac1976]

I find "sleeper" and "outlaw" to be mutually exclusive.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

In other words not so not so much a hot rod but a real "sleeper"

I prefer the term "Q-ship". For German cars, especially.

[safe]

Originally Posted by jac1976

I find "sleeper" and "outlaw" to be mutually exclusive.

+1

we need to define the outlaw concept for a 911.
The same as a bastard?

[Reiver]

The white 911 w/ green stripes is sweet......your bud's car with numbers on the side kind of negate that 'sleeper' look

[Randy W]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

My friend Barret (that's my blue car parked next to him as he pulls out)

Barrett Smith, 3L turbo in a '72 T/RS - Excellence Magazine, November 2008. Awesome car to drive with the best 911 sound ever!

[HelmetHead]

Here is the 356 turbo for sale...$132K

1964 Porsche 356 OUTLAW, $132,900 - Cars.com

[Grady Clay]

I like sleepers.

Let’s talk physics first.
There have been many improvements with the 911 over the years. While it is fun to drive and pleasant to own a nice flat-side SWB, the physics of a 911 is that if you want to drive fast and ‘sporting’, our rear-weight-bias 911 needs more rear tire (and LWB helps).

There is also the temptation to over-power a 911 given the availability of turbocharges, superchargers and race engines. These tend to be less-than-suitable as normal street cars.
Better are powerful large displacement (3.6?) engines with a long, flat torque curve in a lightweight car. With high compression, twin ignition and suitable fuel injection, these can embarrass almost any unsuspecting street car. With a suitably tweaked 915, you can shift as a normal car.
You don’t need (or want) a 150+ mph car that will kill you.

It is very satisfying to have a blindingly fast lightweight accelerate to the speed limit and have someone else go flying over the next hill into the radar.


If you want an early-bumper car, build a ‘73RS clone that looks very ordinary and stock appearing.
You can make it very lightweight (sub-2K#) and still appear stock.

Easier (and less expensive) is a light-weight (like a ’74) impact bumper car with SC fenders. These can shed more than 500# and still appear stock. Black-center 8x16 with 245/50x16 tires in the rear fit nicely and are plenty of tire for a 2000-2300# stealth street hot-rod.
One of the most important place to shed weight is the rear bumper pieces. Easiest is to find a very lightweight fiberglass assembly. The ‘art’ is to have it appear as stock. That takes careful paint and trim so it is ’10-foot-stock’ (appears stock to the unpracticed eye from 10’).

Very important for a ‘sleeper’ is a good, quiet, stock sounding exhaust and intake silencing. An air-cooled 911 engine already makes a lot of fan and machinery noise.

Color choice is also important. There is no disguise with bright red-orange or black with yellow-orange flames. Medium-dark blue or green are good ‘stealth’ colors. So are some grey and not-too-metallic silver.

‘Too low’ is also a giveaway. With proper suspension and reasonable ride height, you will have acceptable suspension travel and ride while being lower than original.

No wings. A stock front spoiler is appropriate. No center front oil cooler, use both front fenders and quiet fans. No ‘big reds’ showing through the wheels (paint parts dark grey). No stripes or numbers.

Most important is sensible driving.
If you want to go fast at the limit-of-traction, do it on a track.


Every single owner has a different idea of this. All are equally valid.

I have a flat-side sleeper; a dark blue 1970 914-6 with good suspension and brakes, high compression 2.8S MFI (~270 hp), short gears, LSD and 2000#. The passenger headrest has prevented many neck injuries. With 5˝x15 10-spoke and 165/78x15 tires, I don’t expect much cornering grip and drive accordingly. With Goodyear slicks (22.5x7.5x15), it has been very track-worthy.


I have been offering this kind of lame advice since before your ’70 was new. Most have been very successful.
I’ll encourage you to keep the ’70T progressing to ‘good running original’. It seems to be a very nice car (and its value is in being original).
Find a good tub and build yourself a lightweight 911 with all the ‘right’ pieces. You could even make it (sorta) look like your ’70 – dark blue.

Best,
Grady

[Randy W]

Great advice! It's what I built.

After having an RS look 911 for years with a ducktail, RS spoiler, nasty motor, loud exhaust and flashy graphcs, I went stealth: all white, no spoilers, no numbers, and 3.6L with twin coolers and optional quiet exhaust. Love it.

Photo: Bob Tilton