A trick to fitting RS heater bypass to 3.6 conversion?
 

Well today was my first start up (my mechanic started it once yesterday before he called me!) and short drive with the '95 3.6 engine in my 85 Carrera... and we have a couple of minor things to finish up, transferring the backup-lights switch pins, getting onion flanges and resonator tips added to the cat outputs, adjusting the throttle cable, and... fitting the RS heater bypass tube...

And the first - and only - "snag" - so far - is that the carbon fiber RS heater bypass tube (I got mine from Fabspeed) doesn't seem to fit. We already changed out the top fan shroud for the recommended 964 part 964.106.403.02 (oddly this 1995 993 engine had the later 993 part which the parts diagrams and lists say it is NOT supposed to have until 1996) and that looks like the right part, size and angle to mate up fine, but the bypass tube won't fit into the bottom space to allow fitment into the lower duct - it doesn't clear either the engine mount gusset or the fuel rail well enough to insert it and maneuver it. It can be rotated so that you can start the pipe into the duct but then there isn't enough clearance to rotate this non-flexible part into position...

All the instructions I've seen say it can be done with engine in... which is where it is!

Is there a trick, or do we need to cut the thing up and modify it - I note others have used this part in their 3.2 to 3.6 conversions and the 964 fan shroud part was the only complication I recall seeing, and we already did that!

Any suggestions greatly appreciated. Luckily with the great weather this can't stop me driving the car this weekend :)

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3473/likeathreesix.jpg

Are we talking about the air duct on the left side?

Jack, yes, exactly! I have the Fabspeed version of the factory bypass you show in your pic. By all accounts it is no larger than the OEM part, and I'm sure Mark K. at Black Forest has used this same carbon-fiber piece in one of his 3.6 991SC jobs.

I've seen your beautiful car many times, along with other 911/Carrera 3.6 conversions that also used a similar part (there are three of four on the market, OEM versions are hard to find and $$$$) so that also persuaded me the part should be a no-brainer drop-in - engine in or out of car.

Jae Lee at Mirage is doing the conversion. We both looked at it today and the part is big to jostle in, and we both tried a while, optimistic fettlers that we are. Here's a screen shot of the part from Fabspeed's install video (hope it's OK to mention them here :)

What do you think? Our plan is to cut it up &/or recontour it for more clearance. It's clearly a close fit between the fuel rail and engine mount gusset - as your pic shows.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336631625.jpg

Only got this one iPhone shot today - shakiness all mine, excited! Somehow I even deleted my first start-up video :(

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336633102.jpg

is the connecting duct above the fan .02 or .00?

You need the .00

Barry -

I ran into the same problem w/my 3.6L conversion. I purchased a carbon RS heat pipe from Maxspeed (basically the same thing as Fabspeed I think) and it does not fit where it goes through the tin because of the engine mount gusset. I think the main difference is that the part is made for a 964, not an earlier 911 and I assume that the engine mounts are different - which is why it works in a 964. . .

I wonder if it works in Jack's car because his engine has been moved forward - maybe just enough to clear the mount gussets?

I hacked my tube all up but wasn't pleased with how it turned out, so I am using some SCAT tubing instead. This is one of the last things I need to work out on my conversion as I don't really get any air flow or heat through the system - I have Fabspeed headers w/heat. There doesn't seem to be enough pressure to blow air to the front and what little air that does make it through is luke warm at best. . . still looking for a good solution as I need heat. . .

Tom

Tom, one way to improve airflow is to add a Carrera kick panel blower to pull air in from the exchangers.

I've been thinking of doing that - it would fix the air flow issue. I still need to figure out why the air coming from the rear is only luke warm though. I'm not convinced that the Fabspeed headers w/heat have big enough boxed sections to heat up enough air. . . My last motor was a 2.7L w/backdated heat and SSIs - they worked great!

I'm not seeing part .00 when searching through the catalog. Only this one: Pelican Parts - Product Information: 964-106-403-02-M100

You could always return the part and buy the orange ducting? Actually, I'm in Leucadia and have some new extra ducting in my garage you could buy, if you'd like - I was going to use it for brake ducting, but it is a far back-burner project. Given a little time, I could help fabricate the aluminum adaptor that you see in my photo.
Hi to Jae.
Doug W (with silver widebody early car)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336661229.jpg

Looks like Doug beat me to it - here's a pic of my SCAT tubing heat tube. . .

Doug - do you get enough air flow through yours? Did you add later footwell blowers?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336661554.jpg

Sorry to keep adding posts instead of condensing. . . but I just noticed that the photo I just posted shows the engine mount gusset that conflicts w/the tube where it goes through the tin pretty well. . .

I'm getting sufficient flow. Bear in mind, I only hooked up one side (left heat exchanger) and have mine piped directly to the driver's side defrost outlet under the window. Here in San Diego, that's all the heat I've needed.

If I'd do it all again, I'd buy two marine inline blowers (setup for suction) and keep the engine bay totally clear. There is a thread somewhere on that approach. That builder just put wire mesh over the heat exchanger inlets to keep out pests seeking warmth.

Doug

Thanks everyone!
 

Wow you guys are up early (non-PDT denizens forgiven ;))! Thanks to you all, I think the fog is clearing to a light mist now...

Hope I don't miss anyone here re responses:

Bill, I have both the 964 (02) and the 993 (00) fan shroud parts in hand - and the Fabspeed bypass tube looks like it mate fine with the 964 (02) part, which was SUPPOSED to be what was factory on my 1995 non-VR mill, but it had the 993 (00) part (in theory only 1996-8) which has the mating end (upper end, pointing left) less close to vertical - but that isn't where it won't fit, it's at the bottom by the engine mount. Just ain't enough room!

As an aside I read in a Rennlight article (Fitting a 964 RS cup heater bypass pipe to a 993TT) by Bob Brooks that if you want to put this 964 bypass tube in a 993TT you do need to keep the 993 (00) part. Once and if I get this thing in, I'll report on which upper shroud part worked on mine.

Tom - strongly suspect you've nailed my issue. I've retained the stock headers and H/Es, heater crossover and cats so I'm stuck with the lower tube location and engine tin. As I wanted to retain A/C I had a 993 engine mount modified. A buddy kindly CNC'd up two lugs and welded up those and a Rennline brace to it… and I suspect that has mullered the space that using a 3.2 hanger (for no A/C) provides - which is maybe why it fits on Jack's car? So I think I'll see if the original heater pipe used with the electric blower fits at the bottom and maybe try some elegant hacking there - or at least attempt to adapt the part elegantly. Since these photos, Jae added a bracket for the coils to the left arm.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336668555.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336668573.jpg

I already have footwell blowers that work and Jack's suggestion was my plan. I bought half-a-dozen from Sean at Autobahn years ago and swap them out for a M^2 rebuild once I can't stand the squealing any more. Only two have burned up in the 15 years I've had the car.

Doug W, the part you mentioned is the part that supposedly fits the Fabspeed tube, which form-wise looks like all the other CF aftermarket parts and Jack's OEM plastic bypass (which would have been my choice if I could have found one for reasonable $).

The two different shroud tops are listed as shown below. Looking at both parts together (as I said we had both in hand) on the 964 part the hole slope is a bit nearer to vertical.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336668639.jpg

I think I'll mess with the part some first and if I give up I'll see if you want to part with some of your hose! I've got access to fab but thank you re your offer to help out with an ali part. Will indeed say hi to Jae - he's been up at Cosworth building engines for Singer quite a bit this year, of all the reasons for the transplant on my car to be a bit delayed, can't think of a better one!

Yup Tom if I can't do a nice job with the RS bypass pipe I'll go that way. I though about adding a tube blower too if output seemed puny, like the ones some folks use for brake cooling, adapting the stock electric fan wiring. By all accounts, with factory RS cars (blower deleted, by-pass pipe installed) the blower wiring was just taped up and and zip-tied to the fuel rail... so might be handy to keep it the same way...

Thank you everyone, a game plan has emerged!

All I can say is that I have a c/f version and an oe plastic version they both want the 964.106.403.02 duct and both have worked fine in both by '76 w/ 964 & 2 different 993 engines and w/ both of the 993 engines I've used in my 993.

I install the end at the tin first because it is hardest, then the top, on the top I use this handy little 90* awl to get tube end to mate w/ the duct gasket duct
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336682619.jpg

The oe plastic one is much easier to install than the c/f one

Well that's definitely encouraging Bill, so I will persist with the cf part; can readily see that OEM plakkie part would at least flex a tad. I am curious as to whether it would have allowed engine insertion if it'd been installed while engine was out of car, I never thought to ask Jae to do that of course. Perhaps my engine hanger means the mill and hence tin etc is sitting a bit further aft. I get the impression most folks use the 3.2 hanger and forgo A/C, but I don't know if that choice even affects the longitudinal position of the engine. It is maybe an inch lower at the rear, by the add-on bosses on the hanger and a stack of washers each side.
But you've helped me decide now - it's gonna fit, one way or another! Will post any relevant or amusing consequences...

Hey Guys,
I am looking for something a little different. I need to find the fan shroud cover for a 964 that has no outlet, just a cover. Smart Racing used to sell a fiberglass one, but they are no longer around. Any ideas where one could be had?

If you mean these things, you can get them from Fabspeed et al (I don't think our esteemed host sells them) - or just make them. There's a thread on Rennlist about why the top one (which just snaps into the flexible port on the standard top air duct) is perforated... not sure anyone had a great answer :)
cheers
Barry
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336776985.jpg

Thanks for the reply. Many years ago, I just cut the air outlet off and covered it over with foil tape. Looks like crap! Here's a pic of what I am looking for. Smart Racing's product or something like it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336777768.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336777788.jpg

Ahah moment...
 

Well, at the expense of looking pretty stupid...

It appears there was indeed a "trick" - after digging the original plastic duct piece (that connected to the electric blower) out of the "junked" box, with the engine installed, it was easy to insert the OEM part; and then inspecting the lower receiver with a flashlight instead of in shadow revealed an internal ridge about 1.5cm down.

Comparing the lower part of the OEM part with the Fabspeed bypass pipe, it was clearly much shorter - so quite simply, the carbon fiber piece needed 2cm trimmed off the end...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336886661.jpg

The part of the pipe below the ridge (that mates into the lower receiver) on the OEM part is about 1.5cm; the bypass pipe extends 3.5cm past the (somewhat less sharply defined) ridge. So untrimmed, the bypass pipe wouldn't go in far enough to allow it to be rotated into place - doh!

A bit of bent awl work (I have one of those, Bill) et voilà! Trimming the part tomorrow, will post success pic later next week.

Success Pics???

Hey Tom,
didn't see your questions weeks ago. I get sufficient air flow to defrost the front windshield. Still, I don't think my car sees below 55 degrees ambient. If it is cold, I drive another car.

I route my heater line upfront right to the driver's front window defrost vent. I only run one side. At speed, I feel a fair amount of warm air there when I've got the rear control port fully closed.

Doug

Forgive me I've been a little distracted driving this whole new beastie around after it being off road 6 months for all the nasty good work...

Forthcoming, assuming the creek don't rise, will post and tell all tomorrow (Tue) :)

Barry,
I'd like to check it out up close. We should meet up one day.

Doug in Encinitas

Completion pics & words
 

Well OK it's Sunday now, just got all the pics and stuff so here goes, and answers to Tom & yes Doug, meet for coffee or something and compare the wee beasties?

Re heat, mine's an '85 (manual heat) so already had the footwell blowers (a small stash has let me cycle them out for TLC until they completely burn up). Silicone Intake Systems provided silicone reducers, SS couplers & clamps to get 2-1/2in SCEET hose (Aircraft Spruce) from the H/Es to the heater valves.

The result, chilly SoCal nights (50's) last week - PLENTY of heat, warm feet with windows down.

I had all three types of fan duct and it looks as though the later 993 type would pass more air (though it doesn't fit the RS bypass tube) as it has a larger plenum - see pics below.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340566604.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340566642.jpg

So maybe without footwell blowers, adapting the 993 part or using a SCAT/SCEET adapter duct might work a bit better than either 964 part.

So back to bypass tube, it was clear there was less clearance than some other conversions, engine mount geometry maybe? I don't know, but get the CF bypass tube in with this car:

1. Cut about 1/2 inch off the lower end as it was too long to insert fully into the receiver. But now it didn't reach the air duct, so…
2. Cut it in two a couple of inches above the distributor vent line port, centered on the roundest section.
3. Added a 3-in (nominal size) rubber & SS pipe coupler sold for ABS pipe, $6 at HD. At first I used the SS clamp on top but after playing with all this stuff a bit decided it was unnecessary, and used only the rubber sleeve.
4. Cut out two oval openings using hole saws and files, one to clear left fuel rail, the other to clear the left rear engine-mount gusset.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340567025.jpg

5. Taped some reinforced rubber material over the two holes with 3 mil x 1-1/4in harness tape (stuff is used for wrapping truck and vehicle wiring looms - conforms well, modestly heat resistant, and the glue/tape doesn't smear/slide) - but this is while effective not going to be the permanent solution (three years later…)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340567076.jpg

6. While the plastic cover over the relays and fuses is shown IN, and tube can be inserted with cover there, cover has to be removed to provide clearance for rotating the tube into place. With no lower gasket in place, inserted tube in position shown in pic; rotating CCW and back put it into position and removing several times to adjust the rubber sleeve fitment for length and angle re the air duct, then removed it again. Without lube, it grips the tube tightly and is not easy to relocate.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340566903.jpg

7. Positioned the loosened lower clamp as shown in pic, with the end lifted over the finger on the receiver as shown in pic, and placed the nut driver with flex drive as show.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340566959.jpg

8. Liberally sprayed the rubber lower gasket, receiver and bypass tube end with RZ-50 dry-film lube.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340567703.jpg

9. Inserted gasket in receiver, then started the tube in position shown above (with cover removed as in 6 above), and with only minor wiggling during insertion & rotation (innuendo fodder) CCW and back into position, it seated perfectly, including the lower rubber gasket, and easily fitted squarely & firmly into the air duct.
10. Tightened the lower clamp with the pre-positioned nut driver (removed tool).
11. Inserted distributor vent nipple & hose.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340567200.jpg

So now clearance on both sides, doesn't rub on fuel rail or engine mount gusset. Even with temp. tape job, not too ugly...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340567239.jpg

12 Job done! (Apos to Wheeler Dealers).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340567268.jpg

Now just four jobs left - increase cooling capacity (Palomar run confirmed need) with driver side active cooler, a bit more work on the muffler system (goal, retain stock cat with livable volume - it's close), add an A/C compressor, and maybe replace the 8-year-old CV joints (1st casualty of extra torque, methinks!). Meanwhile, just driving this whole new animal...

Barry

Barry -

Thanks for the write-up & pics. While I certainly cut up my CF tube to fit around the motor mount, I never thought of slicing it completely in half to help make it fit w/the angles etc... Maybe I'll give that a try.

Thanks again for taking the time,
Tom

Tom, here's the exact part I used, Home Depot, Fernco 3in neoprene shielded coupling, Model # P3000-33, Store SKU # 482152. It's a shiny, clean part (see my photo) and the SS sleeve part fits fine too, if you want to use it, or just the hose clamps, they are 100% SS type. At HD it's $8, not $6, my bad. Just rechecked size, my Maxspeed CF tube ($180, our host had no OEM or CF tubes at the time) is OD ≈3.75 in the roundest portion, and the 3-in coupler fits very well - the 4-incher is too big (two trips on that one). Intercooler Pipe Fabrication - Silicone Intake Systems Auto Parts sell all manner of silicone parts for similar $ but tough to know which sizes if any would stretch or squash to fit well without trying.
Good luck!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340658657.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340660417.jpg

I have one of these fitted 964 RS Carbon ducts for sale, make me an offer. Came off the car I just dismantled.

Markhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1378828579.jpg

I just installed one of these as well...'94 3.6 into an '83SC.....also used the offset engine mount adapters.
I inserted lower end fully into the connector tube, and then worked the upper end into the rubber boot with a tool similar to what Bill posted earlier. Snug fit, looks like it'll work
[IMG]http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/IMG_1588.jpg[/IMG]

Does anyone know where to get the offset engine mount adapters pictured?

You either need to brush up on your welding and fabrication skills, or find a friend or a professional who is capable. Show him the pictures from this thread and tell him you want a copy!
Somewhere in this forum is a thread with fabrication drawings with measurements, but I don't know where. If I find it, I'll let you know. As far as I know, no one builds them for sale. Most folks just bend the mount to fit. (but it's real ugly and unprofessional looking)
Here's some pics of mine before I painted it black. I was lucky enough to buy it from a Pelican on the for sale forum. By the way, I have an extra stock mount available if you need one to work over!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1378928190.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1378928237.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1378928277.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1378928315.jpg

I found the thread with the discussion and drawings for modifying the engine mount bar.
It's a very long thread, but has a lot of good discussions on the trials and tribulations of
doing a 3.6 transplant. The mount discussion is on the first page of the thread.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/541780-let-3-6-fun-begin.html

here's the sketch that I used.....thanks to OP for the detail
[IMG]http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/r...1273624601.jpg[/IMG]

Looks like I'll have to weld and re-powder coat. I have the 3.6L mount that has been bent. But I was planning on using the early engine mount so I've already mounted new studs, etc (don't remember exactly why at this point, but it really made sense at the time). So I have already partially modified the early mount (welded on a coil mount, added gussets to the ends, and powder coated). I was planning to make some relief cuts in it, bend it, and re-weld, but I like this solution better. It would be even better if I could buy something pre-made, but oh well. Thanks!

Did you use the 3.6 tin or did you modify a set of 3.2 tin ?

The early engine console and cross bar are a great solution, however you'll then need the
single crankshaft pulley/belt alternator drive system. Makes everything look great, however if you want to retain A/C you'll have to stick with a modified 964/993 crossbar and mount console.

I believe with the early bar/console solution you don't have to bend the crossbar.
the extended 3.6 console is the reason you need to bend the 3.6 cross bar.

Modified the 3.6 tins...

Yea, I did the single pulley/belt conversion already too. When trial fitting it, it was apparent that the bar needs to be bent a little, probably an inch. I could try to flex it into place but boy was it tough.

[QUOTE=BarryJB;6744649]Well, at the expense of looking pretty stupid...


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336886661.jpg

The part of the pipe below the ridge (that mates into the lower receiver) on the OEM part [QUOTE]


Barry, do you still have the stock pipe or part number?

[QUOTE=Joe Bob;9194371][QUOTE=BarryJB;6744649]Well, at the expense of looking pretty stupid...


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1336886661.jpg

The part of the pipe below the ridge (that mates into the lower receiver) on the OEM part Hey Mike,
Here's the latest version of the stock pipe, note the SS insert in bottom end.
EDIT:Mike, Just saw your other thread looking for "stock" pipe to blower, I misunderstood what you wanted. My bad. LOL
Porsche 964 993 Euro RS Engine Hot Air Elbow Tube Clubsport Cup Light Genuine | eBay

GENUINE NEW PARTS

993 211 941 00 | Engine Hot Air Manifold Elbow - Euro RS 964 / 993 Heater Blower Auxiliary Motor Bypass - Engine shroud to exhaust heat exchanger manifold - GENUINE PORSCHE - List: $280.13

+ Replaces PN: 993 211 341 41
+ Replaces additional blower assembly found on the left side of engine. Reduces 8.50+ Lbs (3.85+ Kg) of weight from the engine with diminished heat flow.
+ 993 Vario-Ram Models Require PN: 964 106 403 02 - Engine Air Duct for Engine Cooling.

Applications:
(1989-1998) PORSCHE 964* / 993* Carrera 2 Euro RS Clubsport / Cup Lightweight 3.6L - 3.8L NA - All Models: Engine Codes (M64.01/02/03/05/06/07/08/20/21/22/23/24/60)
* (Exception) NOT INTENDED TO FIT: 964 / 993 Turbo (M30.69 / M64.50/60) / (1994-1995) 993 and Turbo Models can fit with some modification.
* (1996-1998) 993 Vario-Ram Models Require PN: 964 106 403 02 - Engine Air Duct for Engine Cooling.

Notes:
+ This part includes a stainless steel tube band at the base which improves part integrity.
+ The factory part design has ideal fitment, maintains an original factory appearance and will not yellow or fracture overtime like some composite reproductions available.
+ Please be advised the heating capacity in the cockpit is progressively reduced with lower engine RPM so this may not be ideal for extreme weather climates.
+ Some models also require electrical updates to the relay system to remain fault free.