3.2turbo Conversion - Dyno result...
 

Well, this morning my mechanic Weltmeister had my car hooked up to a chassis dyno to verify Air/Fuel mixtures and max HP.

There was absolutely no air-flow onto my intercooler, so my post intercooler intake temps was quite high, reading approx 33degC, which is the highest I've seen thus far.

Once the dyno run was completed, my mechanic and the dyno guy were beside the Dyno PC working out some figures and looking over the dyno graph and A/F vs RPM table.

He walks over to me and says "How much did you say this thing should put out again?".

I reply (conservatively) "Oh, about 350 or so HP?"

He then smiles at me and says "Well, we've dyno'd it at 390HP!!! Had there been sufficient airflow over the intercooler to reduce intake temps, we'd easily see 400HP. Congratulations! This is the most powerful 3.2L Carrera we've seen!"

:D :D :eek: :eek:

As you can imagine, I'm absolutely wrapped!!!!

Merv,

Congrats - that is an excellent result - what did Protomotive say you would get??? Is the "good" Aussie fuel helping?

For those searching, it might be cool if you relisted the exact mods....

Cam

Thanks Cam.

Protomotive claim/advertise 400HP @ 0.7bar. Totally met my expectations :)

All my A/F ratios were well within safety limits, so I guess I could even run slightly more boost, but I won't until I take the necessary steps to decompress the engine to retain that safety margin. In the top end of the RPM range, it was beginning to lean out slightly, but still well within safety limits. I may fit a 930 Fuel Pump just so my fuel can keep up at the top end.

Mods:-

KKK K27-7200 Turbocharger
Protomotive Motronic CHIP & Fuel Press Regulator
Protomotive J-Pipe (adapts turbocharger to factory heat exchangers)
A.R.E Air-Air Intercooler
A.R.E Dual-Pass Spoiler Mounted Oil Cooler
TiAL 40mm Wastegate (0.5bar boost spring)
TiAL Blow Off Valve
Mille Miglia dual tip 930 S.S Muffler
Apexi AVC-R Electronic Boost Controller (set to 0.7bar max for dyno)
Davtron Pre/Post Intercooler Gauge
Custom intercooler plumbing & fabrication
BMC Carbon Fibre Air Box

Short-term plans:-

CRANE Fireball HI-6 Multi-Spark Ignition system
CRANE PS92/LX92 Ignition Coil
Magnecor KV85 Spark plug leads

Until I'm due for a top-end rebuild, I'm over the moon with the existing output :D

hey merv,

can i ask you what the same package would run me @ protomotive? did you have to rebuild your engine? my 85 has 158K miles, with new valves @ 150K. runs great, no smoke, maybe 1-2 quarts of oil every 3k miles burned. otherwise stock, was your situation the same? thanks for your help.

regards,

carlos

holy shnikeys.

that yellow boxster did bite off more than he could chew.

congrats on the results.

db

Carlos, e-mail Todd Knighton at knighton@netquest.net. He can answer all your questions on price for the kits etc. You don't have to rebuild your engine for a Stage 1 system like mine which runs low boost. It just depends on a strong base engine, not a tired smoking one :)

Thanks Bento. All I can say is that the Boxster S guy will think twice now :D

Merv,

How does it feel to own a man-portable seige weapon? :D

You're toting one bad-ass Cab, there... Can't wait to see/hear it in action!

Feels great Adam :)

In all honesty, it doesn't FEEL like 400HP, but hey, I've never driven a 400HP car before.

I've driven a 930 RuF (BTR conversion) which I think puts out around 369HP or so and they feel pretty much the same in terms of outright acceleration.

However, after having her back for 3 weeks now, I'm so use to it that it doesn't really feel fast anymore. Now I only realise how quick it is when I give her a bit of a squirt through 1st and 2nd from the lights and the traffic is WAY back :D

What was the rear wheel hp figure and at what rpm was peak power and peak torque? Also, what was the average a/f ratio over the run.

Nice figures though it's funny you say that you are already getting used to it! Btw, a 930 would need 1 to 1.1 bar of boost to make that kind of power with a k27 so it shows how much more efficient a 3.2 intake system is.

Sorry, I don't have the dyno graph in front of me to answer that. It's still at my mechanics shop. I pick it up tonight. I'll re-post when I have it handy. From memory, they used a 1.30 conversion factor, which is what Porsche CUP Reg's use. I believe it was a RWKw dyno, not RWHP. It's pulling 221kW at the rear wheels. With a 1.3 conversion factor, that's engine 287.3kW, or just under 380HP (389 or so). Considering the car is stationary with minimal air-flow on the IC core, I'm pretty happy with that. They advised that it should be pulling 400HP with appropriate IC cooling :)

I know, I know, it does seem a bit 'unappreciative' of me to say "I'm use to it!", but I honestly am use to it. When I first got it back, I was blown away. Now, I'm kinda use to the feel of it. I need to get some roll hoops put in and take to the track. THAT would be a blast and a half :)

A 3.2 makes 217-231HP in NA mode. A 930 engine without the turbo makes 117-120HP! I realise it's a compression thing, but also, the 3.2's have larger ports, better intake, efficiency of digital EFI, G50 etc.

That's another reason why I chose to turbo my 3.2 instead of go to a 930.

To answer your question of A/F ratio, it was consistently around 11.0:1. Only in the upper RPM range did it lean out to be around 12.0:1 or so. That will be fixed once I replace the Carrera fuel pump with a 930 unit :D

Merv,

I realize that 0.7 bar isn't a lot of boost, but how many kms has your car done? What kind of life expectancy does Ben Faggetter predict while running at 400bhp?

This is one of the reasons power gets so addictive. You get used to the new baseline pretty quickly. The thing that you get hooked on is the sense of increased power.

They say lottery winners are happy about becoming rich for a set amount of time (something like 9 months, or 90 days, I don't remember), and then they're just as happy/unhappy as they ever were; they've just gotten used to being rich people.

That said, the Protomotive kit looks a lot better in my eyes now that you (and a couple of other guys) have gone through it. And however 'used to it' anyone gets... 400 hp is still a freakin' amazing rush of power. ;)

Congratulations on making yourself a one-of-a-kind supercar.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but isn't a 1.3 conversion factor a little generous in accounting for drive train losses?

Regards,
jc

It might be a little generous - tough to say. My '69 with a 901 box measured (the Bosch dyno in question measured losses as it ran down) was about 1.14x.

I think Richard Nelsons 915 gearbox (Carrera) was more like 1.16x.

It stands to reason that Merv's bigger, heavier G50 is more again. I dunno about 1.3 though either...

I still want it :D

Adam, RE: lifespan, it's kinda hard for anyone to say since this is the only Protomotive type conversion they've EVER done, so no-one can predict how long it will last at this boost pressure. Sure, the extra strain and heat the turbocharging has on the engine will certainly accelerate any wear & tear and that's something I have to budget for when it comes time to do my rebuild, prematurely I might add. I'm actually looking forward to the rebuild because then I can justify moving onto Protomotive's Stage 3 system, which is 585 or so HP :D

My car has done 128,000km's and has no sign of smoking or anything. Before the conversion it ran really strong, with a dyno tested 219HP. So, I've built on what was already a solid and reliable platform. They also used a conversion factor of 1.3 when they did the dyno in NA mode over a year ago. My owners manual says my car should put out 217HP. Maybe the extra HP was dyno error or my sports muffler?!?!?

Jack, you surely understand what I mean :) After a while, you get so use to the acceleration that you want more and more and...

It's VERY addictive. GOD help me. Not from my HP addiction, but from my wife when she finds out I want more! Aaarrrggghhhh!!!

JC, maybe 1.3 is a little generous. All I know is most Porsche shops/tuners typically use a 1.3-1.34 conversion factor when dyno'ing Porsches. A standard maybe? I dunno. All I know is that the car feels like it accelerates twice as fast as what it did in NA mode and the 0-100km/h sprint is over in just a few seconds. That's gotta be fast in any mans language. Protomotive spec these kits out at 400 and claim a 0-100 sprint time of 4.2s. My mechanic saw 390-400HP on the dyno sheet as did the dyno specialist who did the dyno run. Who am I to argue :D

As an example a complete Kremer 930 conversion puts out 380HP (Kremer advertised). A friend of mine has a Kremer converted 930 excluding the Kremer CAMs. When he dyno'd his car, he got a dyno result of ~370HP. Typically, CAMs add an extra 10-15HP depending on profile etc, so his result is pretty much inline with what Kremer advertise.

The important numbers are REAR WHEEL. Conversion factors are advertising BS. If you wish to compare your car to any other you need the rear wheel numbers (for starters).

Sounds like a really nice system, but you cannot compare high compression @ 0.7 bar to low compression (930) @ 1.0 bar. Both will achieve similar HP numbers using the same octane fuel. As you know, every 3.5lb of boost costs you a compression point.
The biggest advantage you have is the EFI. Combine that with your high compression rating and you get great drivability. You might not want to change this.

Just when I was feeling smug about my own 'wide ride' along comes this Aussie.

Kinda like running into John Holmes in locker room...

Merv,

After building my own turbo (Volvo 242GT) in 1978 using aircraft parts, I have been through what you are doing and really glad to see it worked. Now you have me thinking about doing it to my 85 3.2!

I hope that you did engineer in "reverse horsepower" aka bigger brakes and such when you did this conversion! With 400hp on this puppy I bet that its a rocket ship but would wear out standard Carerra brakes and rotors out a lot faster.

Should be in Sydney in June and hope I can see and hear it in person!

Joe

Psssst, hey kid, wanna buy some HP? I'll spot you your first 10 for free.

It is impossible to get a definitive conversion factor for rwhp to flywheel hp for a number of reasons but if you really want to a good guide is rwhp/ 0.88 + 10 for rwd and whp/ 0.9 + 10 for fwd cars. The 10hp represents a minimum loss for most transmissions and this serves to minimise exaggerated figures by high hp engines.

Rwhp also cannot be derived accurately by measuring coastdown losses (cdl). It's too long to go into why but if add rwhp to cdl for the same car in 3rd, 4th and 5th gear, you will not get the same figure as cdl increases massively with speed and is too dependent on tyre pressures and other factors.

Finally, wydryd may not be wrong in using 1.3 to get a flywheel figure if the dyno was done on a Dynodynamics dyno. They are apparently 15% stingier than a Dynojet. Whatever the true figure may be, it's still a solid result!

Merv--


Congrats! Always nice to hear about a successful hop-up, especially a unique one.

As to getting "used" to it, I think I know what you mean. My car's acceleration doesn't *surprise* me like it used to. But it still scares the ***** out of me! Of course, I'm one of those poor souls who used a 3.3 motor as a base :).

As to rear wheel horsepower and the conversion, I've done the job empirically on my particular set-up. Motorsport Design crank dyno'd my engine, put the engine in the car, then chassis dyno'd it. Same ambient temp, same gas, same boost. My drivetrain loss was just a shade below 14% at peak horsepower, and the curves below that looked very similar.

So, at 634 hp at the crank at 1 bar, I figure I'm damm close to 545 hp to the wheels. Subtract a bit off of that because I'm usually running pump gas on the street (and I NEVER dyno an engine, in OR out of a car, on pump gas), and I figure 500 is a safe bet.

And that will shred some rubber...as well as keep the driver interested indefinitely, I presume.

So, Merv...what's next for you besides an intercooler?

LOL @ widebody911 & pbs911 :D

Joeakso, my Carrera is the turbo optioned/look Carrera with all the 930 goodies (body, brakes & suspension (now KONI's)). It was a good base to do such a conversion on. I'm in Melbourne FYI...

930fan, thanks for the input. When I first set out on this project, my aim was to obtain between 350-400HP and I feel I have achieved my goal. When my mechanic asked me what I thought I should be getting, I immediately said 'bout 350-360". That's what my expectations were, so I am still over the moon with the end result.

G'Day Bruce. Your car must be a scarey fast ride :D I know you've used your 3.3 as a base, however, what mods have you done to it again? Opened up ports? Carrera intake? Motec? EVO GT2 CAMs? I'd love to hear specifics on the engine mods. 545hp is awesome! I already have an intercooler! My problem was I was getting no airflow over the intercooler and my intake temps was WAY too high (33-35degC). I typically see between 20-25degC under load on the road. That's a 10deg reduction in intake temps, so that has to count for a slight loss of HP on the dyno.

On the dyno, the Intercooler was basically a brick of aluminium with air passing through it. No cooling medium :(

Thinking of it now, the A/F ratio at high RPM would have been affected by the higher intake temps, so in a real world situation, the added cooling would have corrected the 12:1 A/F at the upper engine loads down to 11-11.5:1.

My next 'short-term' plan is to upgrade my ignition system and in the long-term 'migrate' to a Protomotive Stage 3 system, which is 545HP :D

WydRyd

congrats on an inspiring project.;)

i keep reading good stuff about promo. as well, so they must be doin something right.

the only things that concern me (apart from cost!) are my carrera brakes, and that 915. can the box handle loads more power (i know WydRyd has the g50)??

how much can the 915 safely handle??

i couldn't imagine shifting quick enough with mine to get 0 - 100 in 4.2 secs!!

i may have to make a trip to the usa soem time and smuggle the "kit" back to the uk.:cool:

Its only funny 'cause it's true!

Well, Well, Well, So I go away come back and BOOM!400HP!!
Very nice Merv,any idea of the cost in USD ? Just out of curiosity:rolleyes:

Thanks Juan. I'd say approx $7-8k USD in total (or $14-16k AUD).

For me it was worth it because you can't get turbo cabrios down here :)