How much for a Porsche dealer to fit chain tensioners?

1970_Pete · 08:54 AM

Recently, one of the timing chain ramps on my 1973 2.4s let go whilst outside my local Porsche dealership (lucky, huh?) here in Jersey, GB. The chains didn't come off, and as far as can be told, there is no internal damage.

Owing to a lack of confidence in other local garages, I decided to bite the bullet and get the (£££) Porsche dealer to upgrade to Carrera chain tensioners, whilst the timing chain covers and all the tinware were off.

I'm now concerned that the costs for parts and labour are spiralling out of control - the bill is looking like £1600 ($2500) split £750 parts and £850 labour !!! From reading this board, it seems that many of you guys are able to do the job yourselves for approx $400 worth of parts from Pelican, plus several hours of your spare time. Do you think I'm being ripped off? I suppose I will get an official Porsche guarantee for my money, but it does seem costly. As far as I'm aware, the parts sold by Pelican are from the same source as those used by Porsche - am I correct? Also, the service desk guy reckons that Porsche GB have told him that new timing chain covers are required, whereas articles on this site indicate that the only extra parts (possibly) required are new oil lines, in addition to the tensioners themselves.

Any advice you guys can give would help.

Thanks
Pete

Kurt B · 01-15-2002, 08:58 AM

Changing the tensioners is pretty simple. Just don't screw it up and start it afterward. I know in your case it will be more involved because you'll have to run oil lines that are not there already (whereas I just swapped them out), but it is doable. I mean, it's a lot easier and faster than adjusting the valve clearances for example.

MBAtarga · 01-15-2002, 09:05 AM

$400 US for parts is correct. The timing chain covers, gaskets, and lines are all included. Your early car may require a different line for one side than what is provided in the kit, and also a spacer on each side for the tensioner - I'm not certain.

A fellow Pelicanhead - stormcrow - helped me install the update on my SC last fall. I spent one evening removing the things in the way - sheet metal, AC compressor,etc. We installed the update in a few hours, then I took my time replacing everything back.

1970_Pete · 01-15-2002, 09:09 AM

I'm already committed to the OPC doing the job, but I just think it is more expensive than necessary, especially on the parts side - as far as I know, the parts going on the car will be exactly the same as you can pick up from pelican for a fraction of the cost. I'm also concerned that independent guys on this board are far more knowledgeable about installing chain tensioners than the OPC!

911pcars · 01-15-2002, 09:33 AM

I think half that amount would be plenty to cover parts and labor (or is it labour?), but I haven't been to a Pcar dealer for any repairs. Aren't there several independent Porsche repair shops that could do this? For this price, they should upgrade the idler arms as well (dump the spacers they supply in the kit) and perform some sexual act on something.

Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

orbmedia · 01-15-2002, 09:39 AM

The parts are the same. You do need new cam box covers because the oil fed tensioner requires oil pressure which is routed through the cam box cover. The new cam box covers are part of the $400 kit. It is not a hard job. Yes, it seems you are overpaying by about triple.

PickardS · 01-15-2002, 09:40 AM

Pete,

I paid £285 for the new tensioners and they were fitted when I had the engine rebuilt. As far as I'm aware (and I seem to remember a thread on here a while ago confirming this) there is only one place that makes the kit. OPC must be getting it from there. Ask to see the price list for the parts.!! Good luck.

john walker's workshop · 01-15-2002, 10:03 AM

i charge $750 for the job, and i'm happy enough with the profit margin. it's easier on a 73 also, so they're screwing you. you shouldn't have to pay to train their tech.

Early_S_Man · 10:08 AM

I seem to recall a US$ price of $1400 at a dealer that one Pelicanhead paid within the last 18 months or so, but the Pelican parts price would be closer to $700 if it is to be done 'properly' by changing to the double-bushing chain-wheel carriers. I have to assume that dealers don't use spacers, since they aren't factory parts.

And, it is SIGNIFICANTLY more time consuming to replace the tensioners than adjust the valves, since the muffler has to be removed before the process can begin! Hopefully, the heat exchangers weren't damaged when the muffler was removed! Also, the rear engine mount cradle has to be removed to change the inner four ramps.

Jim Sims · 01-15-2002, 10:47 AM

My son and I made this upgrade in the process of rebuilding his 2.4l '73 911T. You are paying dearly for this upgrade; by a factor of 3 or 4! There are additional parts required (beyond those supplied in the kit) to make the new oil line fit on the passenger side and to reuse your oil pressure sender. As I recall, a fitting block, new hollow bolt, an adapter bushing (for the sender)and three new metallic sealing washers are required. Your dealership may or may not know this information (1973 was along time ago); you may want to provide it to them. All of the parts are available through the Porsche parts system. I have the part numbers in my records at home; I will post them tonight if you would like them. I also concur that you should upgrade to the double-bushing chain wheel carriers while you're in there along with new ramps, chains and plus look at the condition of the tensioner chain wheels (sprockets).

Jim

Matt Smith · 01-15-2002, 11:48 AM

As always, it's better to learn how to do this sort of thing yourself if you have the space, some tools and a desire to understand more about these potential money pits. But you are already there, so you may as well make sure they do it properly.
As warren says, the double bush idler wheel/chain sproket carriers are really needed if you intend to maximise the use of the upgrade: Most of the failures were from this part apparently.

Part numbers for left and right: 930.105.509,00 and 930.105.510.00

The chain covers come with the kit. I suspect they are using individual parts rather than a kit? They should KNOW THIS!!!

And as has been said, you will need a way of joining the right side oil line to the block. The hose that comes with the kit is about an inch and a half too short- exactly the same dimension as the oil pressure sender that sits in that place in later model cars. Yours should still be on top back of the motor.

I happened to have a brand new spare standard hose at hand, so cut a piece off this and had a hydraulic hose shop clamp it neatly on to the updated tensioner pipe end with a strong looking crimp.
It's been on for over a year and looks set to last 'forever'.

You can get a joiner from some aftermarket places (or Porsche?), but it is 1)well overpriced and 2) Unavailable when needed the most. Who wants to wait a month to start their car up for the sake of a bit of tube?

J P Stein · 01-15-2002, 12:32 PM

This subject came up some time back and, as I recall, the "long hose" was found at Stoddards......not much help to a guy in the UK.

I is also possible to use the newer fittings/block that relocated the pressure sending unit and then use the "standard" length hose. One could either plug the opening for the pressure sender or relocate it.......either way, there's an extra hole to plug.

HTH

Jim Sims · 01-15-2002, 12:49 PM

The oil pressure sender may be relocated (along with the 18x1.5 to 10x1 thread adapter bushing required to use the '73 style oil pressure sender) to the front of the engine (flywheel end). This requires a partial engine drop as the alternate oil pressure sender location is near the engine mounted oil thermostat. A screw plug comes out of this location and this plug is used to fill the hole in the fitting block, the passenger side cam tower oil line attaches to. The hollow bolt secures the fitting block to the case. In fact, if A/C is installed on the car (a '73) this move is required otherwise the oil pressure sender will interfere with the v-belt going to the compressor. Oil pressure readings will be a bit higher in the alternate location as the sender will be upstream of some pressure drops. I obtained all the parts for these changes in a couple of weeks out of the US Porsche dealer part system and I seem to recall that Stoddards had some of the fittings too.

Jim

Peterfrans · 01-15-2002, 01:00 PM

490 Euros for the whole kit including spacers for chainwheels and oilline at a german vendor (mittelmotor) I use often (sorry wayne, but import duties into the netherlands are just adding to much to the price). That dealership sure is wanting to make a healthy profit

Early_S_Man · 01:07 PM

On a '73 you don't have to mess with the adapter or plug ANYTHING, or fuss with the oil press. or temp. senders!

The simple and foolproof fix is to cut off the crimp rings for the 'left' side hose to the block from the 'Tee' on the '84 Carrera hose, have an industrial hose supply store replace that left side line with a new piece of longer hose that is the exact 'thickness' of the adapter longer than the hose removed, and swage new crimp rings in place! Bolt it on just like you would the DISCONTINUED CORRECT LINE FOR '73 and earlier cars!

There NEVER WAS a 'KIT' ... just a collection of factory parts! My 'inventory sheet' from Garretson Enterprises was a handwritten document, photocopied and included with each order ... and included both the 'long' and 'short' right side hoses!

1970_Pete · 01-15-2002, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by john walker's workshop
i charge $750 for the job, and i'm happy enough with the profit margin. it's easier on a 73 also, so they're screwing you. you shouldn't have to pay to train their tech.

Thanks John, and all other respondents - I'm trying to take all of your advice on board.

John - would you mind telling me how many hours it usually takes you to do the job in your shop? The reason I ask is 'cos I live on an island with a high cost of living, where the OPC labour rate is close to US$100/hour (anyone any idea what an OPC charges in the US?). I can accept high hourly rates (everyone has to make a living, especially when our cost of living is so high) but what I can't accept is taking longer to do the job than necessary, or getting screwed on the parts.

Thanks to all
Pete

Matt Smith · 01-15-2002, 02:02 PM

Warren- I seem to remember that was my original soloution- to lengthen the hose and get it re-swaged/crimped, but the hydraulic shop couldn't get the thing in their big crimping machine as the end to the left of the T junction to the tensioner line was too short to allow a proper crimp to be made.
If you can find someone with a machine that will do this, as Warren has, then it is by FAR the easiest and most elegant soloution. Don't attempt it on a Sunday when all the shops are closed...

john walker's workshop · 01-15-2002, 03:21 PM

any experienced tech should be able to do the job on an early car, (no a/c), in about 3 hours. if you have a bunch of british car guys (sorry britwrench) scratching their heads over it, it'll certainly take longer. like i said, too bad you have to pay for their training.

orbmedia · 01-15-2002, 03:50 PM

In case you are not aware OPC stands for "Official Porsche Centre" (note the reversed 're'), which is the UK equivalent of a Porsche Dealer. So it is unlikely that it will be run by British car guys - as funny as that image may appear. Training on Porsche repair is not something they should be doing there.

1970_Pete · 05-15-2002, 01:20 PM

Just posting a long overdue update on this....

For my money, I actually got new cam chains installed and the cams retimed. They even gave me a discount on the (already quite reasonable, all things considered) offical UK Porsche classic repair rates, as they left my car out one night, and I happened to drive by, notice, and complain!

In the end, I put my initial panic down to a misunderstanding between me and the service desk guy, over the amount of parts/labour required.

I ended up very happy with the work and the car runs sweet as a nut - would definitely go back.

Pete