Restoring a 911, but have never driven one.
 

This is probably not the proper place to ask this question, but I'm new to the fantastic world of Porsches so I'll give it a try. About 3 months ago, I purchased a 1976 911S project. This may seem rather funny, but I'd never driven a porsche, nor even sat in the seat of a porsche before my purchase. But nevertheless, I purchased the non-running car based upon the reasonable price and the legendary marvel of engineering a 911 is. Well, I've got the car disassembled into a million pieces and the engine seems to be in decent shape. So I'm in the process of overhauling the engine which isn't too difficult. But a total restoration is so damn time consuming. So let me get to the point. I need a little encouragement to keep me going on the right track. Somebody please tell me that the my first driving experience will be well worth my efforts. Here I am sifting through a myriad of parts, many of them unnecessary, enduring many hours of frustration, and I've never driven a porsche. As a matter of fact, I know absolutely nobody with a porsche to share any frustration with. Is my year/model 2.7 911 relatively fast? (This question is coming from a traditional SUV guy 24 years of age) And what can I expect when I take her out for the first test drive. I understand this question to be a little absurd, especially to those that have alot of gas in their veins, but we all start out somewhere huh? Is it worth it? Somebody? Thanks.....

Sounds like you're having a good time. Restoring your car is going to get expensive, if it hasn't already. That being the case, I would go test drive the full range of P-cars. If you decide you like SCs better or early cars better, it's not too late to switch horses. I'd bet you could part your car out for what you paid for it.

You'll find a lot of 74-77 911S bashing around here. I would listen to none of it, and go test drive some cars. You're making a big investment -- financial, emotional and time.

I did much the same thing you're doing, though as a car writer I had of course driven many Porsches. Took me two years, and I did essentially a frame-up restoration, doing all the work myself, on an '83 SC. Cost me about $60,000, including the $10,500 I paid for the original car, since I replaced virtually everything that moved, rolled, rubbed or whatever. Financially, it's a ludicrous investment. Emotionally and educationally, it was a bargain.

The first thing I'd warn you--and it's what I tell everybody who says, "Gee, I'd love to buy a '68 GTO...a '72 Corvette...a '60s Ferrari...etc. etc. etc.--is that you're dealing with an "old car." You might very well be disappointed at performance that a new Saab, say, can probably blow off, to say nothing of a modern sports car. I heavily modified the '83 that I restored (which means I really can't claim that I "restored" it) and at least added about 100 hp and a neat sound (headers, etc.) to it, so it's fun to drive in its own way even though my chipped Audi can probably blow it away.

So don't expect a supercar, even though it was a little supercar in its day, long, long ago.

Stephan

Anyone know the performance stats on this model? Speed, torque, HP...etc?

I was in your shoes about a year ago. I will probably get blasted for saying this, but here was my honest first impression:

Acceleration from a stoplight was severely disappointing. I thought something was wrong with the car. Non-turbo older Porsches are severely underpowered. I cut my teeth on 8 cylinder muscle from Detroit, and I felt my 911's 0-60 performance was very weak.

When the weather broke and the roads were dry, I went out to some remote country roads where I discovered two things that changed my perceptions.
First, CURVES! I have never in my life owned a car that could corner like my 19 year old 911. Accelerating through sweeping turns was new for me. What a blast. My 911 eats up curves like nothing I have ever driven. The balance is wonderful. You feel like you are driving a go-cart that is on rails. Glued to the road.

My second discovery was the RED-LINE! That magnificent power band from 4,000 to 6,200 rpm yields to a screaming monster in the red-line. Once you start to go there, you will be back often.

Yes, the acceleration from standing is a diappointment that lingers. (Look at the 0-60 times of various new cars and you will be shocked at the number of SUV's and economy cars that are faster off the line.)

Having said that, I have never loved a car like I love this one. When we are alone on a quiet curvy road, she never lets me down!

There are a couple of books that can give you background on the various incarnations of the 911. My favorite is "Original 911" by Peter Morgan. You can order if from Pelican along with a copy of 101 projects by Wayne.

The abbreviated version is the '74-'77 are generally referred to as the "mid year" cars. The 2.7 engine had some weak points, but most have been addressed by now (assuming the previous owner knew what was going on). These were the first 911s with the accordian bumpers (to meet US spec). They were not as bullet-proof as later cars (SCs and Carreras), but they also didn't have power brakes and were lighter. As such, the driving experience is more visceral (sources say). Pre-'76 cars were not galvanized, so rust can be an issue.

There are many '74-'77 owners here who love their cars. You've got it in your garage, you now know every part, put it back together and have fun with it. Just don't expect it to be an investment...you'll probably never get your time and money back out of it. Also other cars might be faster, but they don't have the vibe or style of a 911.

Well I'm upgrading cams, and having the heads ported...maybe that will help the bottom end?

First off to answer the question regarding driving a p-car. When you do get the chance you should feel something like no other in a vehicle IMO. I still remember my first porsche a 1970 914 sometime back in 1973-74??. I thought this was the best thing on 4 wheels. I agree with 9XI about the cost of restoring, I've done it and I did for the very reason that the car I have now is the one I grew up drooling over as a kid. I know I'll not get my money back but life is short and I don't care. I've been partial to pre-74's but if you look at he 75 carrera down a few posts it may help your decision. that car IMHO is absolutely stunning!! good luck
elb

I appreciate the input guys; it seems that porsche owners are like one big family. Having done a good bit of research of the problems of the 2.7, I decided to carry on with my purchase. Without a doubt, it has been an educational experience .. and despite the poor prospects for a return on my investment, I've had so much fun in the process that it all seems worth it to me. Porsche restoration is definitely a great way to spend time and I feel a little superior now to all those domestic-auto motorheads. And hey, I get to own a piece of history at the same time.

I'll 'fess up. At the time I bought my 911, I had never sat in a Porsche. And mine spent 3 months getting painted and modified, and I still hadn't sat in it.

The 911 is a blast to drive. It is not a straight-line racer. If you want to blow kids away in stoplight races, then you're going to have to outspend them by quite a bit in order to beat them in a 911. But on curvy, canyon roads -- or more to the point, a track -- the 911 will outperform cars with twice its horsepower. The low center of gravity, low overall weight, rear weight bias, and all-around no-nonsense engineering focus all make the 911 drive and feel like nothing else out there.

Other cars will snap your neck back faster. But very few production cars can rival the 911's overall sense of focus, harmony and purpose.

Guys who sell their 911's in order to buy other cars always feel an empty space where the 911 was.

Not convinced? Consider the pictorial evidence: ;)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/WillowTurn-M.jpg

http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate...nderhill02.jpg

You want some encouragement and an energy uplift for your challenging project, I have the answer. If you go find a 911, ANY 911 and take it for a spirited spin, you will be in a BIG HURRY to complete the project. Anybody in the Montgomery area care to wake up this young man's passion?

Most of us here can't ( maybe Jack ) explain it.

Its going into a corner at FULL throttle. Then waiting till the last second, to apply the brakes. Then when you know you've just passed the apex. Its FULL throttle again. Then you feel the load shift to the rear wheels, and awwwwwwwway you go.

No Substitute.............

Great forum, when I got my targa running and drove it home from my uncles garage which was only a 2.8 mile trip, I honestly had the most fun I ever had in my life. This was on side streets, in a city so I didn't experience many turns, but just the sound of the engine come to life after the previous owner had it "sleeping" for 5 years made it worth while. The top down was a plus, too.
I don't see anything fun about driving in a straight line, I would get bored too quickly. I had much fun in my 69 911T even though the trip was short, and I only have 4-speed 2.0L engine. I'm sure yours will be quicker, and just the sound of the engine first starting up will make it worth while.

Jack,
Where did you get the right side rear view mirror? (sorry if this has been covered before...)

Marcesq,

Thanks for the specs. I hear many people talking about swapping the faulty 2.7L to the 3.0+. I also understand that there aren't many structural differences in the tubs up to 89. In essence wouldn't upgrading a 76 tub to a 3.0 L+ engine be about the same price as buying a 79+ 911? Would I see a dramatic increase in the amount-in/amount-out ratio as pertaining to price? Thanks for the link...I'll have to look into it. Raceware studs, timeserting, carrera tensioner upgrades...etc really add up on the 2.7. It just seems that it would be a better "investment" to have purchased a few years up. i guess thats a mistake many of us "novice" porsche mechanics make.

Re: Restoring a 911, but have never driven one.
 

Well nothing really, you should be running in the engine!

911T
One thing that has not been brought up here and I think anyone other than myself should explain is the 'backing into a mountain"
syndrome. :eek:

JJ:

With the new cars come more amenities and more weight. Cruise control, power seats, consols, wide rear ends, and more displacement.

I happen to be partial to narrow bodied 911s (pre'78) so the newer bodies are not an option, but more displacement is. For me the answer was a conversion (upcoming) to a 3.2.

Everyone has thier own opinion, however there is a very very small market for restored '76, '77 911s.

So if you are going to dump a bunch of money into a 2.7, you might want to consider a swap for a larger engine. In the end, you might make a few more bucks if the 2.7 is not in there.

I have not driven many Porsche 911's, in fact only two. The first one was a 77 2.7 S. I'm not sure what you expect, but if you have the engine sorted and the issues updated, place SSI's and am early muffler on the car you should be pleasantly surprised with the performance!!

As was said earlier, these cars come alive at 4k, and the sound is fast, even if the car is no rocket!


The direct feel of these cars is amazing. You should not be dissapointed.

Overhauling an engine? "Isn't to difficult"???? WOW!

Yeah, its really not that difficult. I'm really into puzzles, not that you should consider a porsche engine a puzzle, but with the many unconventional parts, ie...the tensioners, it seems close enough. Well, as a matter of fact, the only problems I've encountered thus far is a CV joint bolt and flywheel bolt that stripped out and had to be cut off. However, it was my fault with the flywheel bolt, as I used a torque wrench to attempt to loosen the bolt. This just didn't pan out with the star patterned socket. All the rest came off very easily, but Murphy's law kicked in on the last bolt. And I'm sure this wasn't the last time this law will be applied.

I don't intend on taking you all away from your passion (porsches), however I would like to introduce to you another passion of mine. As I said before, I enjoy puzzles, and aside from the porsche projects, I have found another very addictive past time. Its a game called Tantrix, and its the most twisted strategy game in the world. I'f you ever suffer from more boredom than you can handle, check it out ... www.tantrix.com. Yeah its a 'game,' but a game for all, despite the age. Basically the most interesting part of the whole thing is you get to play head on with another player and show him that your intelligence is not to be reckoned with. If you ever decide to play ... IM me and i'll play with ya, my screenname is HighIQ. I'm up for a challenge...

~Good day~

I have only owned my Porsche for about a month. It is my first one, although I have wanted one for many years.

During the past 20 years, I have owned a V8 Vega (yikes), '69 Dart GT Sport, '66 Dodge Coronet with a 440, a Tauraus SHO, a '50 Chevy 1/2 ton with a 327 V8.... lots of hp and lots of steel. But none of them compares to the feeling of owning / driving the Porsche. And to boot the Porsche needs lots of work, which for some reason excites me even more (my wife thinks I'm nuts.... she's probably right).

Have fun.

I used to own a 928 5-speed, which was impressive in a straight line. Then I drove my 911, before I owned it. It was love at first touch. I was blown away by the direct feel and surefootedness (is that a word?). It is stable, agile, eager and cheeky. I love the way the engine note hardens over 3750 rpm and the subsequent boost in power. I love the fact that when it's on the boil, through the gears, there's almost nothing on the road that will catch it.

I love the way I can out-corner other cars on the road, sometimes in near impossible situations and the way I can outbreak other cars with impunity. And my car is mostly stock! When you get it back on the road, lower it as much as is required to give it "the look" and you're laughing.

I also love the way everybody stops and stares; ricers peer over the dashboards of their Civics in awe, middle-aged men spitefully look on with envy, bored housewives gaze sensually into your eyes and you won't be able to wipe the dufus smile off your face! :D

Cherish that first moment in the 911.

Adam

If you dont stop that, you will go blind. I know you know very well what a WRX is, not to mention a 6cyl Commode. As for the bored sensuos housewives- what colour is the sky in your world?

cheers stuart

LOL @ stuartj!

Have you got that Monty on your beast yet, Stuart? I bet it sounds fantastic. :)

Alas no, one aborted attempt has been made. Having that ridiculous 100mm outlet removed and a 75mm put on. Otherwise I would pick up all Victor's chicks as well.

But I doubt it will do much to help my asthmatic purple VW. Its all I can do to fight my way through the babes to get to work in the mornings.

stuart

Stuart,

I agree, you can't carry the extra inches I can.


http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/.../smileysex.gif

Cheers!
VC

That aviatar is really very concerning. I think you are spending way too much time in that Conmmercial Rd bath house. BTW, any word on my application?
stuart

Ah...so it's the size of the outlet that accounts for VC's pulling power!

LOL, you guys...

While we're all watching this thread, are we going to have another drive day? I'm keen, but my car may be in having a nicer oil cooler fitted for a couple of days. We should plan it in advance.

Sorry to jjforland for crashing your thread.

Stuart, grow your hair like the bird in that poster and I'm sure you'll be welcomed in bath houses right 'round the globe. http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/...s/pftroest.gif

IT'S TIME SOMEONE STARTED USING "SMILEY'S" FOR EVIL INSTEAD OF GOOD AROUND HERE!

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/uzi.gifhttp://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/kao4.gif

Adam, do you have a route in mind for the drive day?

Cheers,
VC '89 3.2

You guys are a pisser! :D

I'll think a travel route up, Victor. Got any suggestions? The weather might not be as nice as last time, though... :(

It depends. The porting on the CIS 2.7S is 35 mm (vs 36 mm on the 2.7 RS and 32mm on the "normal" 2.7 CIS's). Given the restrictions imposed by the CIS, it should be enough for most modifications until you convert to carbs and start using an early S cam or something wilder. Basically when you start winding the motor up to 7000 RPM and beyond. Before you go that far though, you should get some meaningful improvements as described earlier on this thread.

As far as helping the "bottom end" (of the rev range), nothing will help you in that regard in a 911 more then cubic inches. The CIS cams are all pretty mild and so they pull as hard as anything in the lower rev's. To get HP in a 911 without a turbo/supercharger, you'll need to wind up the motor. Think 7000 - 8000 RPM.

I've always respected zealots like you who will buy and work on a neat car for ages before they actually get in and drive it. It sounds too monastic for me, but I'm sure that the "celibecy" will purify your soul!

PS: What? With a 911? Boredom is not an option with the list of things that I want to do to it. I'm either working on the list, working to pay for the list or out driving then 911 whenever I can. Oh yeah, and then there is the small matter of a family... ;)

I might as well say this now as I was going to post this anyway.

9 months ago I bought a 69 911 RS conversion as a non runner, Cost me $7000 Canadian ($4500 US) I had never driven a P car but had a lifelong yearning ever since my VW Bug days to own one.
Did a top end engine rebuild myself (rings, valve seats and seals etc), replaced the front suspension pan,( thanks Kurt) retro'd 86 Carrera calipers all round (S type caliper were shot). put on new brake rotors, ball joints, brake hoses, suspension bushings, rebuilt wiper assy, fan assy, rebuilt webers, refurbed fuel tank, new tyres on 8J and 7J rims, cleaned, scrubbed carpets and all interior, etc, etc. Last weekend finally took it out on the road (legally) and got the rings seated so I didn't look like a WW2 battleship laying a smoke screen.
As excited and consumed as I am with this car there were many down periods, am I doing the right thing, have I bitten off more than I can chew, what if I'm spending good money after bad.
How I got through it was with the guys on this website, the JW's, Kurt, Superman, Leland etc,,, always there to provide technical know how and support. 9 months ago I knew squat about how this car works. I have learnt so much in about this legendary design.
So thanks to all named and nameless for your help. My advice to anybody starting the same endeveavour. Use these guys as they had to once used others nto gain knowledge. They'll get you through it.
And the car......wow, what I thought was going to be a w/e driver....can't stop getting into it. Still lotsa things do on it.
Now that I have "taken" so much I can try and give back.
My sincere thanks to all.

Good luck on this project jjforland, you can get any help you need on this board. Before you touch your heads, do a search on this forum on porting/polishing. It is extremely difficult to squeeze more power from these motors due to the efficiency that they were engineered w/ originally. It is not like building a detroit motor,(if that is your background). I'm not saying that you cannot do it, just do your homework first.

As for 911's being slugs off the line, do any of you guys know what they used to call a 7sec. 0-60 car in the late 60's? That's right, "a muscle-car". Don't believe me? Read some old road tests and get back to me. Anything under 7sec. stock was considered blindingly quick, now of course there are 4cyl. cars that would smoke 400c.i. cars in that contest. 911's are quick and feel even faster, so anyone who says differently has a f'ed-up car. Take care and good luck. :cool:

P.S.: Typed from an internet cafe in Paris, can't do w/o Pelican fix.

I agree. I can't stop driving mine either. I've had it 2.5 years now, and I'm still asking the wife whether she needs anything at the store. Tonight I will install the backdated exhaust which means gambling with the oil line connection at the aluminum thermostat with fine threads. I'm not wealthy but the thing that scares me most about the possibility of destroying the expensive thermostat...is the fear of not driving the car for a few days. This car thrills me EVERY SINGLE TIME.