1978 911SC Engine Disassembled

[joeycatt]

I have a 1978 911SC - stock 3.0 engine ...but disassembled!
Short version is this: Owner drives car until it runs rough - stops at a Porsche place, where he's told that he's got 12 broken studs and can't drive anymore. He leaves the car, and says "fix it". Then a few weeks later, changes his mind and buys a new car, and sells the 911SC.
I now have the Porsche, and the engine is in boxes (literally) - torn down to the block. Crank,rods still in the crankcase but the rest is disassembled.
I've measured one piston/cylinder set - looks good. No major damage that I can see.
Question is: Can a gear-head (engineer and mechanic) do a decent rebuild job on this engine? Everyone I've talked with seems to think that if you have not been blessed by the fatherland and have not personally tutored under Dr Porsche, that you are not worthy of torquing a bolt on this engine.

If I do this, what advice/ direction would you offer?
Much Thanks for your help!

[slakjaw]

do it man, i am also rebuilding my first 911 motor i have alot of expirence with other cars but this is my first porsche. my advice to you.. get all the books for your car as you can esp the factory manuals and read them all cover to cover. and if you dont understand something ask questions. its never a bad idea to make friends with the machene shop dood too.



Kyle
71 911

[Jim Sims]

Yeah, you can do it. The "basket case" (parts are in boxes) aspect will make it harder. People on this board will help you with information and advice. You'll need to buy, borrow or rent some special tools. You'll need an engine stand and torque wrenches. Get manuals, spec books, Bruce Anderson's book, and a preprint of Wayne's engine rebuild book if possible. It's considerably different than rebuilding an American V-8; care must be taken to ensure an engine free of oil leaks. You'll want to send the heads to a shop that knows Porsche engines. Rebuild the bottom end while you're at it. I estimate to do a quality job even without new P&C's you'll end up spending at least $3500 for parts, tools, supplies and outside machining and inspection services. Do you have the cash? Cheers, Jim

[pbs911]

If you read through this board, the topic of "Engine modifications" always seem to come up. With this in mind, do you have any plans to increase the performance of the motor? Do you want to?

If I were in your position, I would look for a running motor that I could drop it. Anywhere from $3-6K. Then I would familiarize myself with the motor assembly, read up on motor improvements and build the motor you now have in boxes to your desired specs. The cost of the parts alone to rebuild you motor will probably equal that of a used motor purchase.

This will allow you to (1) drive the car much, much sooner; (2) read up on the 911 motor; (3) decide whether you want any performance mods to the motor; and probably most importantly, (4) allow you to rebuild the motor in a slow and thought-out manner.

When your done, you could sell the motor you purchased for about the same amount as your purchase price and recoup the costs. I say this because I wish I had an extra motor I could build over a period of a year of so.

Either way you go, this board can provide a wealth of information.

[jabb]

You can do it.... As mentioned earlier not haven taken it a part will make it a little tough. Hopefully things that were taken apart were well marked........... Just finished my rebuild of an 82 3.0

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Joey,

It can be done!! As an example, I am out about $3800.00 on my rebuild, new studs, rings, bolts, nuts, tensioner upgrade, timing chains and gears, new plugs, etc.

I would suggest you buy the Bentley, Wayne's 101 Projects, Haynes (don't flame me it does have some good info and is cheap), and the Porsche Manuals. There is alot of information located in these texts.

Your other source should definitely be this board. With these guys help we can all rule the world, collectively of course. Welcome aboard!

David

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

I not only tore totally down and rebuilt an '83SC engine with absolutely no previous Porsche experience and little engine-building experience of any sort, I extensively modified it. And I'm not even an engineer--I'm a writer. Do it slowly, carefully, cleanly and while asking on this board all the questions you need to, get all the right books (Bruce Anderson's, Bentley shop manual, factory manual, skip all the cheap Brit books) and you'll have a wonderful experience. Compared to something like a Lexus V8, the 911 engine is a masterpiece of simplicity.

Stephan

[clnilsen]

I've actually seen his car, and it is a good starter. I keep thinking engine replacement, to get more HP, But like I've told him, just rebuilding can be done.

I think that at least he should rebuild to Euro Spec for the extra HP difference between the US and ROW cars. I think this is a excellent opportunity for some mild modification, even if he's going to stay with the 3.0.

Follow these other guys advise, and get the books. I think they can talk you though any of the rough spots!

The SCWDP needs more cars!

Good luck and welcome!

Chuck

[Wayne 962]

12 broken head studs is almost a near impossibility. I would suspect someone was exaggerating on that comment.

The more I delve into research on this engine rebuild book, the more I find that there is a lot of mis-information out there, (plenly on this BBS too), and also a huge lacking of information. Correct procedures for checking clearances, what to do with rebuilding your parts (not contained in ANY manuals - yet), and a lot of other misleading information (like reringing Alusil cylinder - shouldn't be done).

joeycatt, do you know if you have Alusil or Nikasil P&Cs? You can reuse the Nikasils, but not the Alusils (reliably).

My suggestion would be to wait 1 month until my book is finished. I'm not really trying to push it (heck, I know it will sell well), but I really want people to avoid a whole bunch of mistakes that are common due to lack of and mis-information...

-Wayne

[Superman]

I respect Wayne's experience and knowledge, but I am apparently one of the exceptions to the Alusil rule. I re-ringed my alusil jugs and the engine is as tight as a drum. No smoking.

I'll also admit here that while I have been around open engines and stuff, the 3-liter rebuild I just completed was my first engine rebuild. Yes, you can definitely do it. In most important ways, these engines are just like any other. Of course, the tolerances are a bit tighter.

Still, the folks advising you to find a good used engine are giving good advice. You should at least consider it. Jack paid $5k for his euro 3.6 (plus shipping).

[joeycatt]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
12 broken head studs is almost a near impossibility. I would suspect someone was exaggerating on that comment.

The more I delve into research on this engine rebuild book, the more I find that there is a lot of mis-information out there, (plenly on this BBS too), and also a huge lacking of information. Correct procedures for checking clearances, what to do with rebuilding your parts (not contained in ANY manuals - yet), and a lot of other misleading information (like reringing Alusil cylinder - shouldn't be done).

joeycatt, do you know if you have Alusil or Nikasil P&Cs? You can reuse the Nikasils, but not the Alusils (reliably).

My suggestion would be to wait 1 month until my book is finished. I'm not really trying to push it (heck, I know it will sell well), but I really want people to avoid a whole bunch of mistakes that are common due to lack of and mis-information...

-Wayne

Wayne - much thanks for the response - and advice -
As to cylinders - Nikasil is what I have. Mahle pistons and cylinders, +2 size. I'm getting a calibrated Micrometer (inside and outside) this weekend - I'll check the expensive parts!
Can you tell me about your book? IF it's a "how to" , then count me in!
Much thanks - Joeycatt!

[clnilsen]

Wayne:
I can vouch for the 12 broken Head studs. I told joeycatt when I looked at his car on this that the one thing I was concerned with was that this was a larger case than just some broken head studs.. that something catastophic might have happened in the engine to cause so much damage.

I'm not an engine expert, so I'm not sure exactly what to look for.. best I can do is point in the right direction (look here!)

Later!

Chuck

[Doug Zielke]

One of the main problems with a "basket case" anything, is: Are all the pieces in the basket!?! Don't expect that they are.

Before you start, arm yourself with shop manuals, parts books, and any other material you can lay your hands on, and read up on your task.

Good luck. The SC is a great car and well worth your efforts.

[Wayne 962]

It's a common misconception that Mahle only made Nikasil cylinders. They also made Alusils as well. So just because it says "Mahle" on it doesn't mean that it's Nikasil.

The Nikasil cylinders will be slightly magnetic. This is the best test that I know of.

I would venture to say that if a 911SC engine was driven around with 12 broken head studs, for any length of time, I can pretty much guarantee you that the cylinders and the heads are shot. You can drive the car around with one broken head stud per cylinder, but two? It's like driving with one lug nut on your wheels. Having 12 broken studs is like driving your car with one lug nut on all four wheels!

I would suspect that the person who disassembled the engine attempted to remove the lower studs using an incorrect removal technique. These studs will break when you are trying to remove them if you don't heat the case. I suspect that is what happened in this case, as the rest of the story just doesn't add up.

Send everything off to Walt at Competition Engineering, and he'll be able to tell you what's good and what's not. Most people don't have the proper dial bore gauges and/or experience to measure and determine the condition of their engine parts. In fact, this is what I recommend in the book, because there really is no substitute for years of experience, and having the right measurement tools...

-Wayne