Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > Porsche 911 Technical Forum


Poll: 6-Point Race or 4-Point ASM for 80% Street-20% Track
Poll Options
6-Point Race or 4-Point ASM for 80% Street-20% Track

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Craig T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 4,018
4-Point ASM Schroth or 6-Point for 80% Street 20% Track???

I'm struggling between comfort-convienence and full-race safety. I was curious as to what everybody thinks.

This car is for recreational driving only. 80%-90% cruising Santa Monica and Santa Barbara Mountains canyon roads, with maybe 5-6 Porsche Club time trials per year, and the occasional autocross with Steve Wong, Flieger, Jeremy, and the boys.

I'm running GTS ST seats with headrests (no shoulder strap holes). Would you go with:

1. Schroth Profi II 6-Point Harnesses with 3" Shoulder Straps.

2. The Schroth ASM 4-Point Rally Cross ("Anti-Submarine Technology") with 2" shoulder straps. BTW...1/2 the price of Profi II




__________________
Craig T

Volvo V60 - Daily Driver (I love it!)
997 Turbo - FVD Exhaust, GIAC Tune - 542 dyno hp on 93 oct
1972 Chevy K-10 Pick-Up Truck Hugger Orange
Old 08-30-2012, 04:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered
 
racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 3,255
Many groups don't allow 4pts on the track. may want to make sure that's not an issue.

Other groups require proper routing for 5/6pt belts, so if your seats can't accomodate them, then you need to consider a change of seats.

20% track use can still result in a 100% impact.
__________________
1970 914-6
1987 924S
Past:
2000 Boxster 2.7, 1987 944
1978 911SC, 1976 914 2.0, 1970 914 w/2056
Old 08-30-2012, 04:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Craig T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 4,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by racer View Post
Many groups don't allow 4pts on the track. may want to make sure that's not an issue.

20% track use can still result in a 100% impact.
I hope this doesn't turn into one of those Big Brother "safety first stupid" thread of replies. I fully understand the risks of track driving. I've been cup racing since 1999, with several class championships in Porsche Owner's Club.

Whether or not the local PCA and POC accept the 4-point ASM belts is a VERY good point that I hadn't considered. Thank you Racer.

I assume the local PCA autocross events do allow the ASM 4-point. The Porsche Owner's Club relaxed their time trial safety equipment rules two years ago on the newer cars with front and side airbags. Nobody with a 997 or new Boxster was willing put in harnesses and race seats for an occasional Saturday at the track.

As for my hot rod, I think you're probably right. The seats have sub-strap hole and lap belt holes, but no shoulder belt slots. I bet Sheriff Parker the POC Comp Chairman would frown on the 4-point. I think the best answer is to buy a Recaro Pole Position and 6-point and throw it in when I plan to do a time trial. I'll use the 4-points and vintage seats for weekend cruising.
__________________
Craig T

Volvo V60 - Daily Driver (I love it!)
997 Turbo - FVD Exhaust, GIAC Tune - 542 dyno hp on 93 oct
1972 Chevy K-10 Pick-Up Truck Hugger Orange

Last edited by Craig T; 08-30-2012 at 05:36 PM..
Old 08-30-2012, 05:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Tigrah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 118
Garage
I have 5 point harnesses. I leave the fifth unbuckled when travelling to the shops.
Old 08-30-2012, 05:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Craig T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 4,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigrah View Post
I have 5 point harnesses. I leave the fifth unbuckled when travelling to the shops.
A 5-point is not that safe with the sub strap is undone. Front and rear impacts result in pelvis and intestine damage because the lap belts ride up when you submarine. That's the beauty of the "ASM" on the Schroth 4-point Rally Cross. Of course they are not as safe as a 5 or 6-point with the sub strap locked in, but they're safer than a 5-point with it undone.
__________________
Craig T

Volvo V60 - Daily Driver (I love it!)
997 Turbo - FVD Exhaust, GIAC Tune - 542 dyno hp on 93 oct
1972 Chevy K-10 Pick-Up Truck Hugger Orange
Old 08-30-2012, 05:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered
 
175K911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Wheaton, IL (Chicago 'burbs)
Posts: 3,072
Why not two sets? Leave the stock seat belts in the car for street, and install BreyKrause hardware to clip in a proper 5 or 6 point harness for track, autox and the occasional aggressive canyon run.
__________________
Ed
'86 911 Coupe (endless 3.6 transplant finally done!)
'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0 Turbodiesel (yes they make one)
'97 BMW 528i (the sensible car, bought new)
'12 Vintage/Millenium 23' v-nose enclosed trailer
Old 08-30-2012, 07:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Max Sluiter
 
Flieger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: So Cal
Posts: 19,574
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig T View Post
A 5-point is not that safe with the sub strap is undone. Front and rear impacts result in pelvis and intestine damage because the lap belts ride up when you submarine. That's the beauty of the "ASM" on the Schroth 4-point Rally Cross. Of course they are not as safe as a 5 or 6-point with the sub strap locked in, but they're safer than a 5-point with it undone.
I would go with the 6 (or 5 like I have) point for that reason - to keep the lap belt from riding up.

If you have the right kind of seat (like a kart) then the seat takes a lot of the braking (or crashing) forces because the seat has your legs going up. The extreme would be like a formula 1 car where your feet are at chest level and you are laying down, but a kart seat gives you the idea.

I put the sub belt on first and then do the shoulder straps and it is not bad, but I am young. I don't have any discomfort due to the sub belt. The cutout in the seat is plenty far forward enough.

I hardly ever adjust the belt length, so that may be why I don't find it hard. If I do adjust the length it is only the shoulder straps. My dad, however always has to adjust the shoulder straps when he gets in. He needs to loosen them. I think it is because he slouches after a while in the seat and tightens them at a stop sign or something, then when he gets in the next time and sits up straight the belts are too short.
__________________
911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/

Last edited by Flieger; 08-30-2012 at 08:20 PM..
Old 08-30-2012, 08:15 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Max Sluiter
 
Flieger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: So Cal
Posts: 19,574
Garage
I guess it also depends on if you can reach your radio and things like that when belted in. I don't have those issues, not because I have long arms but because we don't have any accessories. Adjusting the (one) side mirror requires undoing the cam lock but I can do that once at the start of the drive and it is fine for the rest of it. 4 point or 6 point would both restrict that movement but inertia-reel belts would allow it.
__________________
911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/
Old 08-30-2012, 09:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
ratpiper71T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Cackalacky
Posts: 879
I think and I may be wrong on this one but I think the Profi II ASM 4pt is designed to be a 4pt but it says you can add a sub if you wish-- so maybe 4pt on the street, thread and connect the 5/6 sub on the track?? How do you like your GTS ST seats?
Old 08-30-2012, 09:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Senior Advisor
 
James Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Bellingham, WA
Posts: 5,471
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to James Brown
a 3 point is much safer on the street and a lot easer to put on and off several times a day, even the 4 point is a pain after the 3rd time putting it on and off just for smokes and cheeseburgers (racers breakfast). 5-6 point for the track.

here is my dilemma, if i put a 4 point in my car, i need a roll bar or good hard points, if i do that, a great seat is in order, if i do that, then go with the 5-6 point, if i do that i want a helmet to protect my noggen from damage, if i do that i need a hanns device to keep me from breaking my neck. ahhhhhhhh. if i do nothing but the 3 point, everything is good but i slide all over the seat. it's all or nothing.
__________________
08 Cayenne Turbo

Last edited by James Brown; 08-30-2012 at 10:57 PM..
Old 08-30-2012, 10:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Max Sluiter
 
Flieger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: So Cal
Posts: 19,574
Garage
Why is the 3 point safer for the street?
__________________
911S
1971 chassis, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened

Suspension by Rebel Racing, Serviced by TLG Auto, Brakes by PMB Performance
http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_911_fahrer/
Old 08-30-2012, 11:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Senior Advisor
 
James Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Bellingham, WA
Posts: 5,471
Garage
Send a message via Yahoo to James Brown
the 3 point pulls the lap belt tighter and down as your body mass goes forward keeping it around your pelvis but the 4 point allows your body to submarine under causing the lap belt to damage the abdomen reagan and your knees and feet to hit the lower dash and footwell. this makes the 5th strap a vital part.
__________________
08 Cayenne Turbo
Old 08-30-2012, 11:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered
 
proffighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,191
Garage
I have this one, as it's both, street legal and FIA approved. Can be extended to 5 or 6 point if needed:

Profi II-FE asm



BTW, I use according Schroth the rear belt points, so no need for bar here. And as in the name, they got asm too
__________________
Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list

Last edited by proffighter; 08-31-2012 at 12:17 AM.. Reason: more text
Old 08-31-2012, 12:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Craig T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 4,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Brown View Post

here is my dilemma, if i put a 4 point in my car, i need a roll bar or good hard points, if i do that, a great seat is in order, if i do that, then go with the 5-6 point, if i do that i want a helmet to protect my noggen from damage, if i do that i need a hanns device to keep me from breaking my neck. ahhhhhhhh.
LMAO! The "Slippery Slope" well defined James!
__________________
Craig T

Volvo V60 - Daily Driver (I love it!)
997 Turbo - FVD Exhaust, GIAC Tune - 542 dyno hp on 93 oct
1972 Chevy K-10 Pick-Up Truck Hugger Orange
Old 08-31-2012, 08:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Craig T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 4,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratpiper71T View Post
The Profi II ASM 4pt is designed to be a 4pt but it says you can add a sub if you wish-- so maybe 4pt on the street, thread and connect the 5/6 sub on the track?? How do you like your GTS ST seats?
I thought this was a good solution, and I called Jackie at Werks2 about ordering the Profi II ASM with added sub-strap. The issue is the Profi's 3" shoulder belts and the headrest posts. My GTS ST seat does not have a provision for shoulder straps. The headrest post are 8" apart. If I run the 3" belts outside the headrest post it's too wide to fit properly and could slip off on impact. If I run them through the posts the 3" straps dig into my neck. The 2" belts have enough clearance between posts to fit comfortably.

To answer your question...I love my GTS ST Seats, but it's not a track seat. Jeff at Aase Motors reminded me that I have an old Recaro Pole Position at his shop. I'm just going to switch drivers seats and belts before time trial events. It's the best solution.
__________________
Craig T

Volvo V60 - Daily Driver (I love it!)
997 Turbo - FVD Exhaust, GIAC Tune - 542 dyno hp on 93 oct
1972 Chevy K-10 Pick-Up Truck Hugger Orange
Old 08-31-2012, 08:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered
 
midnight911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: PDX, OR
Posts: 999
Garage
As James Brown puts it, it's all or nothing...pretty much.
I assume you have roll cage in the car. if not, great arguments about 5-6 points not safe when car rolls over.
I took my 6 point and harness bar out and now i track the car with recaro pp and stock 3 point...like the Stig does on TG track. Evidently i lost some sense of being strapped but I still gained in lap times this season, so I guess it's all good.
__________________
1984 911 Carrera Coupe - 32C #73 - M64/05
1998 E36 M3 4dr
1989 E30 325i 4dr
2006 Sienna 5dr - the hauler
2010 Cannondale Caffeine II - Lefty
Old 08-31-2012, 09:53 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered
 
proffighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,191
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig T View Post
...I love my GTS ST Seats, but it's not a track seat. Jeff at Aase Motors reminded me that I have an old Recaro Pole Position at his shop. I'm just going to switch drivers seats and belts before time trial events. It's the best solution.
I have pole positions too, very nice combination then. Together with the Schroth a solid belt for track and road. Using this combination almost ten years
__________________
Roland

930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 08-31-2012, 10:33 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered
 
175K911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Wheaton, IL (Chicago 'burbs)
Posts: 3,072
I just reread the original post. Stick with the stock 3 point.

You stated the seat you're using has no holes for the shoulder straps, so there's no way I'd even attempt to run a 4,5, or 6 point harness. And I'll assume there's no hole in the seat base for the sub belt either.

So running shoulder straps around the outside of a fixed headrest in not something I'd ever want to run on the track. And I don't believe there's any sanctioning body that would condone that type of setup on the track.

I'd check out Brey Krause, get a pair of their belt adapters that let you keep the stock 3 point belt in the car and add a 3" lap belt to hold you in the seat when out having fun with your car. You can order the lap belt with clip in ends that just snap in place
Brey-Krause R-9001 Tunnel Side Seat Belt Mount Kit

But that's just me.
__________________
Ed
'86 911 Coupe (endless 3.6 transplant finally done!)
'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0 Turbodiesel (yes they make one)
'97 BMW 528i (the sensible car, bought new)
'12 Vintage/Millenium 23' v-nose enclosed trailer
Old 08-31-2012, 10:55 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Craig T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 4,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by 175K911 View Post
I just reread the original post. Stick with the stock 3 point.

You stated the seat you're using has no holes for the shoulder straps, so there's no way I'd even attempt to run a 4,5, or 6 point harness. And I'll assume there's no hole in the seat base for the sub belt either.
Read the rest. The seats have a sub-strap slot and lap belt slots, just no shoulder belt slots. The car has a TRE RS roll bar with harness bar. There are no three point belts This is a stripped down long hood 3.4L twin plug hot rod. Irregardless, this thread is dead. I'm putting a Recaro Pole Position in for track days and using a 6-point. Between track days I'll use my GTS ST's with the Schroth Rally Cross ASM's. It takes 10 minutes to swap them out. I already ordered them all from Werks2.
__________________
Craig T

Volvo V60 - Daily Driver (I love it!)
997 Turbo - FVD Exhaust, GIAC Tune - 542 dyno hp on 93 oct
1972 Chevy K-10 Pick-Up Truck Hugger Orange

Last edited by Craig T; 08-31-2012 at 05:51 PM..
Old 08-31-2012, 05:43 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Craig T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 4,018



__________________
Craig T

Volvo V60 - Daily Driver (I love it!)
997 Turbo - FVD Exhaust, GIAC Tune - 542 dyno hp on 93 oct
1972 Chevy K-10 Pick-Up Truck Hugger Orange
Old 08-31-2012, 05:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:54 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2020 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.