1968 911 2.0 liter / Buying question

[Dottore]

I have an opportunity to buy what looks to be a very nice fully restored 1968 911.

The car looks and drives very well. However the are no photos or invoices to document the restoration. The car is in Holland, and I am told by the seller that such documentation is often not available in Holland for tax reasons. (presumeably the restorer is paid under the table and doesn't want evidence of his work floating about.) Makes sense to me, but are there any Dutch pelicans who could comment? I should perhaps add that I have a fairly high degree of confidence in the seller.

Also this car has black and white instruments, and I thought 68's had the green numbered instruments. Anyone know for sure?

Also any particular problem spots to look out for on this model.

Also what would be the price range for a freshly and fully restored (bare metal etc) car.

Finally, what do you think about the relative merits of this model as opposed to newer 911s? I ask because although I have owned many 911s in the past the oldest was 1982 SC.

Many thanks in advance for your help.

[Allen_70S]

Hello Dottore.

DR B. Johnson’s book “The 911 & 912 Porsche – A Restorers Guide to Authenticity” states that “In 1968 the white-on-black gauges first appeared.”

Al

[Beschleunigt]

I can't answer the Dutch questions but I can give my opinion on the model year. 68 911s were the first year to come with the newer style gauges so the car you are looking at has the correct ones. As far as value goes, that question depends very much on the quality of the restoration and on the completeness and originality of the car. If it were nicely restored and had matching numbers drivetrain I would not be surprised to see a car like this selling for $40,000 or more. It all comes down to the condition and depth of restoration.

[Beschleunigt]

Ha, looks like Allen beat me to it.

[304065]

Originally Posted by Dottore

I have an opportunity to buy what looks to be a very nice fully restored 1968 911.

The car looks and drives very well. However the are no photos or invoices to document the restoration. The car is in Holland, and I am told by the seller that such documentation is often not available in Holland for tax reasons. (presumeably the restorer is paid under the table and doesn't want evidence of his work floating about.) Makes sense to me, but are there any Dutch pelicans who could comment? I should perhaps add that I have a fairly high degree of confidence in the seller.

Also this car has black and white instruments, and I thought 68's had the green numbered instruments. Anyone know for sure?

Also any particular problem spots to look out for on this model.

Also what would be the price range for a freshly and fully restored (bare metal etc) car.

Finally, what do you think about the relative merits of this model as opposed to newer 911s? I ask because although I have owned many 911s in the past the oldest was 1982 SC.

Many thanks in advance for your help.

No documentation is no documentation is no documentation. Hard to think of how that is a positive.

Black and white gauges for 68.

THE particular problem spot is rust. SWB cars rust everywhere. A thorough PPI goes over every 1/2" of the car checking for rust. It's hard to say that any one particular area is more prone to rust than others, because they are all prone to rust. My SWB 911 had rust in the ROOF when I bought it. Some areas are more potentially catastrophic, e.g. the front suspension pan, which holds the suspension in place, and the torsion tube, which holds the rear, but you can easily find rust in the floors that impacts the longitudinal, the inner rocker, the outer rocker, the jack receiver and the heater tube.

Even in a comprehensive restoration these things may not necessarily have been addressed. A good way to check-- take a look inside the heater tubes at the heater outlet next to the driver's and passenger's ankle. Freshly painted steel or crumbling brown scale? SWB 911s had Teroson undercoat over a thin primer coat, and over the years moisture gets underneath and rusts the surface under the undercoating. So this must all be removed, down to bare steel, to prevent rust from coming back.

I would spend more time on the underside than the shiny side and that completes the commentary on rust issues.

Next. Motor restoration. Aluminum case or Magnesium? Matching numbers or no? A few photos of the engine will tell you whether the restoration was completed by someone with respect for authenticity or not. Restoring an early 2,0 liter correctly is about a $15,000 proposition at the low end.

Next: Besides a '64, I think a '68 is the hardest 911 to restore, because of the number of one year only parts. Interior: dash, door panels, seats, wing window handles, ashtray, switches, etc. Suspension: one year only front crossmember which is like a LWB, but has SWB-like control arms. Body: different trunk latch panel and washer bottle. rolled SWB fender lips that are thinner than earlier. Reflectors for USA.
Wheels: spacers and 5.5's, different wheel hubs. Vented brakes on some models.
Engine: some had mag case, smog equipment, vacuum retard distributor, different electrical panel.

Half the problem is identifying all these one year only details. The other half of the problem is executing them correctly, not with other SWB or LWB parts but with the right ones.

A bare metal restoration is probably a $50,000 proposition at the low end. Then add the engine to that. Properly restored SWB cars are now estimated into the six figures, with plenty of data points north of $50,000 for nice ones. They are illiquid and don't really trade, so it's hard to point to comparable data and there is much noise in the marketplace.

An SWB car is the missing link between the 356 and the fat-fendered German hotrod of the 1970s. The completely flat sides and skinny tires look more like a T6 than the later cars. Total weight is around 2300 pounds all-up, with a flat dash, truly spartan interior, and a suspension that is a trap for the uninitiated or careless.

You don't so much as THINK of a lane change as do it. The little flat-six whirrs quietly at cruise, and when you open the throats, howls like a chainsaw and the car rockets forward to redline, daring you to upshift and stay in the throttle. You feel every bump, every contour of the road.

It is Butzi's original design. It is absolutely pure. There is nothing like it.

[Dottore]

Thank you for that comprehensive response 304065.

I have sent you a pm.

Cheers, Mark

[Matt Monson]

Mark,
If the restorer is reputible, why doesn't the seller let you speak directly with them? They may not want a paper trail for whatever reason, but a good craftsman will stand behind his work and should even be proud of it. If they are unable to verify who did the work and what exactly they did, I would be suspicous. There are some superb shops in that part of the world. A number of them buy my parts. I cannot see a valid reason why they would not speak to you about a car they worked on.

[Deschodt]

Isn't the 1968 2.0 euro motor a bit of a dog? What model ??? I ask because you say the car is in Holland, so it's probably a Euro model.... I know of a local grey market Euro 68 911T for sale, and having test driven it for a friend post rebuild, I think my big bore 912 would eat it for breakfast. It makes 110 hp I think in euro trim... The US models (there was no T in 68 I think, just an L?) made more HP.

I kinda like those 68-only bits, the dash for one is easier to restore... Door panels are pretty...
Like he pointed out, the front suspension pan rots from the inside out, so plan on replacing it if it's not been done.

[Daves911L]

"Total weight is around 2300 pounds all-up, with a flat dash, truly spartan interior, and a suspension that is a trap for the uninitiated or careless.

You don't so much as THINK of a lane change as do it. The little flat-six whirrs quietly at cruise, and when you open the throats, howls like a chainsaw and the car rockets forward to redline, daring you to upshift and stay in the throttle. You feel every bump, every contour of the road.

It is Butzi's original design. It is absolutely pure. There is nothing like it."
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I love this comment from 304065! Describes very well the unique pleasure of a swb 911. I've had my '68L for almost 25 years. It was just a cheap old beater. At the time I had newer and much faster 911s. A friend needed it out of his garage so I bought it to help him out. Figured I'd save the miles on my "good" cars. But after I started driving it, well, it just grew on me. The other cars are long gone, but the '68 is still with me and today I wouldn't want any other sort of 911.

[Dottore]

A brief public word of thanks to John (304065) for straightening me out on these cars and saving me a lot of grief.

You have to love this forum!

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Isn't the 1968 2.0 euro motor a bit of a dog? What model ??? I ask because you say the car is in Holland, so it's probably a Euro model.... I know of a local grey market Euro 68 911T for sale, and having test driven it for a friend post rebuild, I think my big bore 912 would eat it for breakfast. It makes 110 hp I think in euro trim... The US models (there was no T in 68 I think, just an L?) made more HP.

Yes, if it is a T it will be only 110hp. Though that is one reason to dig into the restoration information. Frequently on a rebuild they will be improved.

I owned a '68 T (yes they are Euro market car, not US delivered) for about a year. It is about the same as a 912 from an acceleration standpoint, and like a 912, many of them were delivered with a 4spd (mine was).

Nonetheless, I think they are great little cars. In fact, I just picked up a '67 912 because I wanted the SWB driving experience more than I wanted the power. It's ironic because I kind of came full circle. I got rid of the '68 T to get a 3.2l Carrera. I got rid of the 3.2l Carrera to come back to a '67 912.