Guys could you help finding a value on this 69` S

[pjv911]

This car is only 1 1/2 hours away from me and early 911 cars are very very scarce in the north east. I would be interested in selling the 69` T that I just bought from Oregon and buying this car. I have never even seen a real S car in person so this is a rare oportunity for me. Please give it as much honest abuse as possible so I dont get to excited. I relize this car is a euro model but where are the sport seats and front spoiler ! Also why is the 4th digit in the vin a 5 ? What engine is that ? Also whats the difference in the transmission . According the the redbook the euro models use the 901/07 and the USA version uses type 901/13. Oh and one last question is that the same 170 hp motor that the USA cars have ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1834921606

[pwd72s]

Quite frankly...the mere fact that this car is running cookie cutters instead of the standard fuch alloy wheels? I suspect a Piece of ***** car here. Without being able to look at it? Not much more comment. Buyer beware...

[pjv911]

Paul, Maybe thats a good thing to keep the bids down. I have many sets of fuchs in all sizes so thats not a problem. If its possible I will go to see this car in person and make an offer. I just need some experianced "S" advise on what to look for as far as originality. I do agree that the car is very ****ty looking but you know that can be changed with paint and wheels. Please keep the abuse coming and maybe I will know what im looking for here.

Kurt.

[cegerer]

This one would be on the low end of the price range for early S's ($9-12K????). The rust is a BIG concern despite the seller's comments. Seller acknowledges it needs paint and the interior is worn. I highly doubt the mileage claim and would need to see documentation in the form of maintenance and repair receipts on that (average of 750 miles per year, give me a break!!)! No information on engine - has it been rebuilt or is it a 33 year old miracle?

Sport seats would have been an option and the S spoiler was not yet invented in 1969! Better look very, very carefully at this one. Might be a good driver if you can get it cheap enough. LOT's of $$ required to make it good, but totally restored it could be a $30k car. So if you buy it at $10k, that leaves $20k for restoration. Can you restore the exterior, interior, and mechanicals for $20k? Me thinks not. -- Curt

[emcon5]

Looks like an Earl Schieb respray (at best) with lots of overspray under the front hood. Did they spray the engine grille too? Really makes me wonder what is underneath that new paint.

Couple other things, I could be wrong, but that front valance doesn't look right for an S. Did the S spoiler exist in 69? It also looks like the bumper doesn't line up properly. Compare how it lines up under the turn signal light compared to Jacks Black Beauty in this pic:



It is hard to tell from the pics, but the sills look rusty to me.

Also, looking at Bruce Anderson's book and PET, that VIN ain't right.

VIN: 9115119300791

If you dump the first digits 9115, the rest

119300791 comes out as a 69 911S, Porsche body.

Unless it goes really cheap, my initial feeling is "Run Away!"

Tom

[emcon5]

Originally posted by cegerer
the S spoiler was not yet invented in 1969!

Guess that answers that question.

Tom

[Two Oh]

[. Compare how it lines up under the turn signal light compared to Jacks Black Beauty in this pic:




About the left turn signal and vent being turned up. You and I have you seen this at least a hundred times.
Look at as many early 911's as you wish. On the net or in Porsche publication. More than 50% of the cars you see have this raised light assembly on the left side. It's cleary an error on Porsches part when the cars were built.

[69 Soft Targa]

VIN?

Me thinks the "5" is an "S" and not part of the VIN at all.

911S 119300791

[Bobboloo]

I think the car is diffenently worth checking into. Sure it's a little rough but surely worthy of closer inspection. That it still has it's MFI is a good sign. The interior looks good too. The tach is correct.

Just a side note. Did you know that the 69' S is the lightest production 911 Porsche has ever made? (911R's don't count)

I think the Cookie Cutters could be a blessing in that they'll help keep the cost down. Ditto on the paint and incorrect side mirror.

If I lived anywhere near this car I would diffenently check it out.

Bobby

[jluetjen]

PJV911;
I'd agree that if it goes cheap enough (keep in mind that it is a no-reserve auction) it could be a good deal. Especially considering that you already have a 911. It might be a case of combining your T and the drivetrain and a few other parts from this S makes a great car. I'd sit tight until late in the auction so as not to bid it up. A few thoughts after consulting my Spec book as well as my own '69E (wanabe S).

1) The ATS cookies are cast aluminum, not mag. They weigh about as much as the Fuchs, but the Fuch's are tougher as a result of being forged. Personally I like the ATS's, the remind me a little of Ferrari's Cromadoras. I like the Fuchs to, I just haven't spent the money to buy a set of them yet.

2) Rust can be an issue. Take a good sized screwdriver and poke around everywhere under the car. If it is steel, the screwdriver shouldn't do any damage. If there is rust, you'll find it. I'd check this BBS for any pictures of 911 rust damage so that you'll know where to look. I'd have a checklist of the different places including;
- Headlight buckets
- Rockers
- Inside rear wheel wells all the way up by the door jamb
- Around the windscreen and rear window
- Lift up the carpets and check the floors. Especially down in the pedal box area where water can collect in the indentation where the pedals are mounted.
- Behind the trim strip at the base of the doors.
- Around the rear side windows.
- Inside the trunk.
-etc. etc. etc.
(BTW - Rust may not be bad for your cause if you decide to combine with your existing car)

3) Check for crash damage. See if you can drive/push the car through a big puddle and check the tire tracks as they come out. The car should track straight. Make sure that the front tires do not track off-center from the rear tires. If they do, then the car may have been bent and the alignment adjusted around the damage.

4) Mechanically, the '69S has a lot of fairly unique parts on it. The heads are similar to the earlier S's, but have the MFI ports, and the valves are unique. FYI - There were/are recently 5 '69S heads on Ebay that sold really cheap. Unless you have a '69S, they won't do most people any good. The engine should be the 170HP model, and it is essentially the same for Europe and the US. (FYI - my car was a "European model" also.) The car should have a oil cooler in the right front fendor. The clutch set-up for a '69S is also fairly unique so you might want to be aware of what those go for. The '69 MFI has a different solenoid set-up from the later cars. It actually makes it easier to replace the standard cold start spray bar system which is considered something of a safety hazard.

5) The interior seems to be in reasonable shape. Something does look strange about the window trim on the passenger window. I believe that the omission of the headrests was normal for Europe. At that time they didn't necessarily even believe in decent guard rails on the side of alpine roads. If you're going to plunge off of a precipice, what's a headrest going to do for you? Personally, I don't like the idea of whiplash, but I guess they are retrofitable or the seats can be replaced. My car has them already.

6) The serial number suggests that this was assembled about half way through the model run, sometime in '69. The engine number should be between 6390001 and 6392126. The gearbox should be a 901/07 (die cast housing) or 901/13 (pressure cast housting). The ratios would be the same for either.


I agree, the value of this car depends on the closing price. If it goes cheaply, then it will be a good deal.

[70flatsix]

I'd pass on the car. It isn't a Targa!

[ErVikingo]

I currently own 2-69 S cars. I echo John's comments and depending onthe price, your budget and what you want it for it could either be a bargain or ....

Pro's
- seems to be an S
- Euro turn signal lenses (could be expensive)
- H1's ? headlamps

Con's
- door gaps
- front bumper gap
- wrong mirror
- missing front bumperettes (oops I don't use them either)
- wrong wheels
- funny ride height
- missing 911S emblem and PORSCHE lettering
- does it have the 911S lettering on the dash (hard to tell from the pics)

Check to see if it has the dual battery setup and if not, how it was modified. Check for rust in:

- battery boxes
- suspension pan/tank support
- jack points
- longitudinals
- floor pans

Check engine and tranny numbers, make sure you are getting S parts if not adjust the price accordingly.

Last year i bought a car that was "perfect", I'm over 12K in rust and engine repairs with no visible end in sight........

For the right price, I'd go for it. However, right price would be less than 6-7K I'd say. Factor in 2-3 K for rust repair, 3-5 for engine work, 2k for paint, 1-1.5 for interiors, and another5 for others and you could have a concours car.

Sorry to be brutal but I've been burned before, remember you are dealing with an old beast, not a lot in the way of rust prevention and its coming from the NE....

S/N corresponds to a 69 S (number range for 1969 119300001-119301492). It came out of the line 51 cars later than my race car!

Let me know if I can be of help. Juan

[Randy W]

An early 911's value is determined by the condition of the body first and foremost, then motor, then interior. Rust at the sills is major rust. If this is the case, they will likely need to be replaced, and there is probably more rust waiting to be fixed in other areas. After all the rust and bodywork is done it will need to be painted and reassembled correctly - $$$, not including any necessary motor work. Unless you are approaching this as a parts car, you absolutely need to check this car out in person with a body man you trust. At a little over 2K it's not a bad deal for a parts car, it could even be a great deal IF the rust is not too extensive. Unfortunately even a pre-purchase inspection will not tell you about all of it. Best of luck in your search for a good S,

[pwd72s]

1972 was the frirst year for the "splitter" front spoiler. Standard on the "S", optional on T and E... But this car? Even though an "S", probably good as a parts car, possibly a track car, but it would take a TON of labor and money to return it to concours...

[barlowdo]

What other distinguishing features do "S" gauges have ? One is the tach- I believe the RPM limits are higher and that is how you tell. But what of the other gauges ? I think the oil level gauge has three idiot lites in it not two as a normal car. The third being for oil pressure. But maybe this was not true in 69.

Also shouldn't an S have the aluminum front calipers ?

As a side note in the Cookie Cutter pic it looks like the paint has peeled around the molding to the left of the wheel revealing either serious rust or orange paint.

- Not an expert Don

[cegerer]

"At a little over 2K it's not a bad deal for a parts car, ..."

Wow, that is brutal Randy! Of course, without seeing the car in person, we're all just guessing. You could be correct. But it seems to be intact and I think it has the potential to be a fairly solid driver - the extent of the rust is the key!!!

P.S.: if it looks like it's going to sell for $2-3K, I'll be bidding myself! -- Curt

[cegerer]

Oops! Up to $5600 already. No bids for me! -- Curt

[jluetjen]

Also shouldn't an S have the aluminum front calipers ?

Correct. An S would have "S" brakes which have alloy front calipers and cast iron rear calipers. The alloy calipers have a very light metallic color while the cast iron calipers are a dark gray.

Also, the S's came with front and rear sway bars standard while the T/E only had a front bar standard. But in the intervening 33 years, a lot of the non-S's have been updated. From this car's perspective, it should be a no-brainer to confirm that they both are there.

['77]

Cutters good, rust evil.

Worth a look for educational purposes alone.