EVERYTHING messed up. Timing, idle HELP! Longish
 

I need help. The car is a 77 with 2.7 CIS. I was verifying my engine timing, to help see why my engine runs hot. My tach doesn't work so I used the timing light to check, My idle was at 1100. I tried to slow it down but when I turned the idle adjustment screw it the engine would stumble then stall. 1050 was the lowest I could get the car to maintain an idle.

Then for the timing, my cars spec says 15ATDC, When I checked it with the light it was running AT TDC. I loosened the nut on the distributor and moved until it was at 15ATDC. The car ran VERY POORLY.
As a side note the distributor had not been moved in at least the 4 1/2 years I owned it. I think it was right where it was.

There are also lots of little marks on the pulley, but I am sure I am using the right one. It is the left one in the group of two side by side.

I am really frustrated with this, I don't know where to start. And I want the car running as good as possible for the roundup.

I do not know what my fuel mixture is. It was running lean a few days ago (light coloured plugs), so I richened it by 1/8 of a turn. The plugs today were darker. And I have heard richer is safer than leaner.

PLEASE HELP, Tell me what to do. I have access to lots of tools. BUT NO Porsche tools or Mechanics :(

I can't understand why the car won't let me turn down the idle, or how these timing marks are working. Nothing makes sense. And to make matters worst my "101 Projects...." is in a box unpacked in my garage with my furniture still.

Shawn
BTW my fuel pump relay is ticking at idle. I traded relays and they all do it. If I give a little gas the ticking stops.

Thanks

Bump . Please help.

Shawn,

Putting this thread's symptoms togther with your 'clicking' fuel pump relay ... sounds to me like there is a problem with your ignition switch! There is no reason for the fuel pump relay to click ... unless the power is being interrupted to it by a loose or intermittent connection, and whatever is causing that to happen could also be interrupting power to the CDI-unit and be causing an erratic/odd idle condition.

Or, perhaps there is a problem with the airflow switch contact, and the clicking relay IS THE ENTIRE PROBLEM, and is affecting the pressure to the CIS system to a degree bad enough that it is not stable enough for idle speed to 'settle' down.

Shawn ... try removing the fuel pump relay, and putting a solid 12-ga wire jumper from pin 30 of the socket to pin 87a, and see if the idle problem goes away.

I am still messed up.

Warren thanks again for all your help over the years.

I went out to the car to "jump" the relay. Only the damn thing wouldn't tick. So I thought it would only tick when the engine is HOT. I cleaned all the conections on the relay and again on the 14 pin connector in the engine compartment. Let the engine warm up (210) still no damn ticking. I will try it again tommorow at higher temps. (it was 230 when I had the problem.)

ANYWAYS, I attached the snap on timing light to try and set my idle lower, it was still over 1100 at idle. (It has RPMs on it too)
Here's what I did
-I disconnected all the throttle linkage from the engine.
- turned the idle screw as low as it would go, clockwise.
-then I kept turning the mixture screw until I had 975 ish for RPMs. The RPMs were jumping between 970-1050.
- Once I had the idle I re-attached the linkage.
- the idle was stuttering an was 780ish.
-I turned the idle screw until I again had it jumping around 980.

This is probably WAYYYYY wrong and my mixture is probably out to lunch. But it idles nice, and ia a lot quieter than before.

I drove it for 2 minutes home this way (from my garage) and don't want to drive it until someone tells me I probably won't mess anything up too bad.

I hope I can figure this out.

My timing is still set AT TDC not the 15 ATDC the specs call for.

PLEASE HELP A DUMB Canadian Porsche owner

:confused:

Shawn

OK went for a drive toady, temps got to 230. The ticking in the relay is gone. I am assuming the cleaning of everything fixed that.

BUT I still am unsure of the reason why it is set AT TDC, and idling etc well. I am thinking this is why it is running hot. Should I Set IT TO 15 ATDC, then get the idle set ok, or what what should be done first
1- Fuel mixture
2- timing

The idle will obviously change with either so I must set one of these first.

I DO NOT want to wreck anything here.

Shawn

Shawn,

Your timing should be set at 5° ATDC, as shown on the sticker below, and as for all other 2.7 CIS engines ... it is the leftmost of the four notches grouped as follows: 5° After TDC, 0° TDC (Z1), 30° Before TDC, 35° BTDC.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...rera3-enlg.jpg

Shawn...I got this Calif. 2.7 from my brother about 7 years ago..The first thing I did was disconnect the dizzy vac. line then set initial timing about 2-4 deg BTDC..figure your initial around your total 35 deg. and see what happens. I don't think you'll wind up w/more than 5 deg. BTDC...this will mellow out your advance curve without the smog requirement restrictions that went down in 77 for the 911. The rest should be a routine tune up w/mixture adj./setting...I assume you don't have other electrical problems...I assume you checked the Beru wire/spark plug connectors...I use the cheap Gasometer, or what ever it's called, for setting fuel mix. .costs around $125..I would get the routine BS straightened out 1st , then see what your left with...you may wind up w/CDI/coil headaches latter after the basic BS is taken care of. The fuel/elec/ign. systems are relatively uncomplicated.....Ron

The ticking was back when I restarted the car 30 minutes later. So it is not when it is hot just on warm restarts????

Thanks guys
Warren the sticker on my engine said 15 ATDC. So I just set it to that. But now reading your post I am thinking it might be the 5 deg due to the fact that the car doesn't have thermals.

Anyways I set it to 15 deg ATDC then I set the idle to 1000. When I drove the car it worked better seemed to have more initial pickup.

I drove the car and the temps stayed around 220, so a little lower.

Ronin I don't thinkl I have any other electrical problems. The spark plug wires and connectors are only 10,000KMs old so they should be good.

The part that is confusing is that the timing has NEVER been changed ion the 5 years I had it, so it has been wrong for a LONG time. Now I don't know if I should leave it at 15 or change it to 5 deg as Warren says. Warren you are ALWAYS right so????

Shawn

Once I have the timing where it should, be I need to get to a gas analyzer.

Make sure that thing is running right for the 12th of July Shawn!

Tim

I believe the 15 deg is stock on some models. In order to make it smog friendly at the cost of engine life/heat. At 15 deg the vac. adv. must be operating. To use the 5 deg adv the vac line should be plugged. There is a detailed article in Pano concerning this situation involving some '77 911s.........Ron

Ronin any idea what issue of Pano? And shoyld I leave it at 15 deg or block the vacuum and run it at 5 degrees ATDC. Which would work berst, and run cooler?

Tim- No worries the car WILL be ready by then. Nothing short of a blown engine, or totalled car will keep me away :)

Shawn

Shawn,

Was your car originally a California car? That would account for the 15° ATDC timing that kills magnesium cases and power, too!

You can use the 5° ATDC timing with the vacuum connected ... that is what 49-state cars used, and the 2.4 engines before the 2.7 engines! The vacuum module provides 10° of retard ONLY at idle!

If you disconnect the vacuum, use 5° BTDC, because that is what your centrifugal advance was designed to be set at. All of the specs from the '72-'73 spec book in the following thread apply to your distributor ... which has identical specs to the '72-'73 2.4T distributor!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5432&highlight=distribu tor+lube

Shawn...the info is a copy from Pano in the Up-Fixin series...I'm in la la land so I can't give you hard info..I plugged the vac line, then found total timing a about 33-35 deg. That should be a 5 deg. initial advance. The engine will run thru the rpm cleaner. The eng. should run cooler in the 2.5k - 3.5k range. If you get in touch w/me in Sept. I will send you a hard copy...Ron

The Spec. for 15 deg. was for California cars I think. It will run sucky this way. I keep my '77 (non cat) at the Z1 (TDC) plus or minus 2 deg. Been running fine for 20 yrs this way.

Early-S, My sticker on the fan shroud says 911S-169.3 CIS and set ign. @TDC +/- 2 deg. I know I've got a 2.7 ! what gives with the 169.3 ?? Something to do with SC ??

Shawn- I suspect you have other issues that need attending to. 230 is a little hot. A lean mixture is going to run hotter than a rich one though.

Thanks again I will plug the vacuum and set it to 5 DEG.

Alan is your vacuum blocked off? I know my loop cooler is NOT working, the thermostat is messed up. So that will NOT HELP, But I want it to run as well as possible. I am going to take my thermostat out and see if it is just seized.

Anyone there with a 77 CIS tell me exactly how theree's is set. ie timing, plus how many turns for the idle screw and fuel mixture. Just count how many turns to a full stop for each then set it back exactly where i was?? I know that is a LOT to ask but it would give me a great starting point :D

Shawn
77 Targa that I love!

I'm getting confussed with all these posts. I assume you have a 1977 911S with CIS yet you're getting specs for '73s and 74's and timing marks for an SC.

Do you have the sticker on the Fan Shroud ?? If so, you must go by that, whatever it says. Also, which distributor to you have Marrelli or Bosh ? They came with either.

My '77S has the Boshe Dist. with one vacume line. Timing is set at TCD with Vacume connected.(for some reason the UK specs. are 5 deg ATDC ...go figure) If you disconect the vac line it will run like **** (no advance).

My '77 dose'nt have cent. advance just vacume advance and I suspect yours is the same. Don't block the vacume line !!!

Can't help you with the mixture. I never mess with it. once it's set it stays set and have never touched it in 20yrs either. don't want to take the chance of not passing smog this year. Plus, counting the turns from some other vehicle isn't going to do you a lot of good.

If you cooler isn't working that would be a very, very good reason why your running to hot.

Okay, I'll join the fray, just to complicate things. First, if you have points, then they need to be in good shape. Distributor cap and rotor too, and ignition wires, spark plugs, etc. Make sure your ignition system works fine. then adjust.

JW likes to time these engines at full advance. That would be 35 degrees BTDC at full advance. If this results in detonation (knocking, pinging), then back it off until the detonation goes away. If there is a "real" way to set ignition timing, that is it.

Fuel mixture would be last, except that resetting the mixture may change idle, and it also may change the engine's detonation characteristics, so you would need to check that again.

I too wonder whether the throttle plate switch may be tripping the FP relay.

Alan yes it is a 77 with CIS

The distributor has 1 vacuum hose, and the vacuum works (sucked on it )
I had already disconnected the line before I read this.....It ran like you said.

Now my sticker says 15 ATDC, but it was always set ATDC. I set it AT TDC! It was there for 5 years and ran fine. But the sticker said otherwise as did all the posts so I was concerned.

Now when I had the vacuum disconnected it was running crappy and popping. (I luckily have an airbox)

It is running same as before now, RPMs around 1000 at idle. I am going to TRY to find a gas analyzer tonight!

I know the loop cooler is causing part of my problem but I thought there was more to it, Without the cooler should the temps hit 230 regularly? The car would hit 230 in about 5 minutes- Highway around 70 MPH, temps around low 80s F.

Thanks again everyone, (WE will figure this out :) )
Shawn

Superman, what do you mean by the throttle plate and the FP switch??

The plug wires are less than 10,000 kms old. Plugs are new, Points are set to specs and are a year old, as are the distributor cap and rotor.

I misted the engine compartment last night with water, looking for sparks to indicate a miss (brother-in-laws idea) and there was no indication. He said that if there was a miss it would be life a fireworks show (kinda)

Hope to see you next month Superman???

Shawn

Shawn,

Your car is definitely running hotter than it should in 80° weather!

Alan,

<b>There is no confusion ... if you would BOTHER TO READ the posts! The SAME distributor specs were used on ALL 2.4 engines, ALL 2.7 CIS, engines, AND the Carrera 3.0 engine! If you actually look at the sticker I posted ... it DOES say that it applies to 2.7 liter engines!!! The fact that the data I posted in the other thread came from the '72-'73 spec book is irrelevant! The factory service manual states specifically that the distributor data for the 2.4 engines is to be used for the 2.7 CIS engines!

You are mistaken about your distributor having vacuum advance!!! It has a vacuum retard module that only functions at idle! If you want verification, just put a timing light on your engine, then start the engine and observe the timing ... remove the vacuum line and plug it, and notice that the timing advanced by about 10° when the vacuum was disconnected ... now rev the engine and observe the advance smoothly changing to a maximum in the advance vicinity of 30° - 40°!</b>

Shawn, the throttle switch thingie I mentioned is on my car, but i don't know whether yours has one. Its function is to cut off electricity to the fuel pump while the engine is off, like in the case of a collision. When the engine starts and the air flow sensor plate rises to get out of the way of the incoming air, it flips a switch that allows the FP to get electricity once the key is released. If the air flow sensor plate were to fall far enough due to poor idle, it might trip the switch. This would make the FP relay click.

Alas, I am otherwise engaged on the weekend of July 12-14. I wish it were not so.

Shawn,

The fuel pump relay and airflow contact were BOTH added in '76 ... so, yes, your CIS system has the switch contact Super Jim referenced.

Superman that SUCKS. Oh well we will have to make another reason or engine drop to meet.

Where is this switch? I will check it out too.

Warren, the car WILL be set to 5 ATDC, vacuum connected tonight. You know that Most of us on this board will do ANYTHING you say. (Dangerous) If you said to set it to 50 degree BTDC and REV it that the popping is normal. Most of us would leave it that way :eek:

Thanks soo much again everyone for all the help you KEEP giving me.

Shawn

Hey Sup....

Well first of all I didn't say you were confused. I said I was confused. And I still am. Here's a pic of my Fan plate
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/DSCN0096.jpg

Very different than yours. Notice how your plate shows the Z1 mark slightly over to the right with a black mark at the 5 deg ATDC mark and settings @ 5deg.

Mine shows the Z1 mark on the left with the black mark at Z1 with settings to be +/- 2 deg. @ TDC.

The confusion is in the Z1 mark. I don't know what the hell mine says now.

Shawn, the switch Superman is referring to is dirctly behind the rubber boot on the throttle body. You can't see it. You have to feel behind the boot and follow the electical lead to it. It's about an 1" or 2 below the bottom of the boot. You may want to jiggle it or pull it in and out a few times to try an clean it. It would make sense if this was faulty the relay would constantly click and may stop clicking once things got really hot in there.

p.s. I did read the posts.

Alan,

That sticker is certainly a new data point!!! The 'CID 163.9' refers to the displacement in cubic inches! Known in the rest of the world as a 2.7 liter engine ... that sticker seems dedicated to the USA market ... and the 'Series II' designation is a bit of a mystery ... but I am quite certain it pertains to 2.7 liter engines with Dilivar studs that appeared in mid-year 1977 production! It seems to be a revision specifically made for latter 1977 production, or possibly retrofitting after the discovery of the thousands of cars in the southern USA were pulling studs because of the thermal reactors and inane timing specs! There was an unofficial 'recall' on 2.7 engines in '76-'77 for retrofitting of Dilivar studs and it often involved entire replacement engines.

However, I do believe the sticker has an error with respect to the four timing marks and Z1 notch! You can verify this by checking yopur crank pulley ... and cleaning off the four notches and pulley. Does the second notch from the left have a 'Z' to the left of the notch? I believe the heavy diamond symbol should have been over the second notch, not the first on the left! The layout of the crank pulley was made for 1972 MFI engines and the same pulley, including the fifth notch to the far left at 40° after TDC marked FE for timing of the MFI pump ... which was used thru early 1976 production of the 911/83 RS 2.7 engine ... and even thru SC and Carrera 3.2 engine production! I have never seen any evidence of a unique 1977 pulley as marked on that sticker!

OK Let's add EVEN more confusion.

My sticker shows the Z1 mark in the exact same place as Alans???? And it also says Family II. I thought the Z1 mark was a TYPO. I will post a pic of my sticker tommorow because my is different again. Has no mention of an airpump, the ignition timing says 15 +/- 2 ATDC

But mine also mentions California, so as Warren mentioned in an earlier post, mine was probably originally a Californian car.

Funny especially since Alans car and mine are even the same year.

Shawn

Here is my sticker. Sorry about the flash point.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/Dscn0538.jpg

Shawn

Warren,
I'll check out the other marks on the pully this PM.

To further complicate things, when I rebuilt the engine from the crank out I used these marks to set the valve overlap and still obviously use them to set the valve clearences and ignition timing. Now I'm woundering if overlap settings are right !

With the Z1 to the left, a case could be made that the right mark should be 5 deg. BTDC but I don't know what use that would be. Any engine timed BTDC ???? Any engine that you know of use TDC as ign. timing mark ??

There is no "Z" anywhere on the pully.

On the rebuild, found some studs that pulled out so don't know about the Dilivars.

Now I would really like to get the petigree and real data on this engine. Would VIN # and Engine # help ?? Where's the engine # ??

I think there are some other stickers on the doors that can narrow it down such as a (NON-CATYLIST) non-Calif. car.....and a "born-on date" some time in late 1976.

SHAWN, does your care have any other stickers on the doors ?

Yes, the RS 2.7 engine used TDC timing at idle with the standard '73 crank pulley.

Here is the factory service manual page related to '77 timing data ... I found it very interesting that the vacuum port was blocked permanently!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...mingData-s.jpg

So Warren, should mine be then reset to TDC and plug my vacuum?

I did try that the other day and it ran poorly.

Shawn

Shawn,

That sounds like the best plan to me. Ultimately, it may have a positive effect on your oil temp!

Thanks Warren. As the car originally ran was ATDC with vacuum connected. So If I set it back to TDC and block the vacuum you think it MAY run cooler?

How does the timing affect the temps? Retard = hotter /advance = cooler? I know only within specs but is that the general rule?

Warren how hot do you think my car will continue to run, without the loop cooler? I was thinking 210 in mid 80s weather NOT 230. Or does anyone out there have a 2.7 CIS nwith no cooler to give an idea.

Shawn

Shawn, keep in mind that timing advance and idle speed are related. Been a while since I did it, but I think retarding your timing by moving it from from TDC to 15 ATDC will slow down your idle speed.

This would probably explain why it ran like crap when you changed the timing.

Tom
(If you know this, and reset the idle speed, and it still ran like crap, never mind)

Tom

Oddly enough, Shawn my car doesn't have the aux. oil cooler and @ 80 deg. outside temp I run at about 190F. It may sneak up to 200F if in traffic.

Of course I have the 11 blade fan and when I rebuilt the engine I modified the air deflectors per Bruce Wayne.

Before the rebuild I got into the 240-250F range all the time and the oil got so thin the green oil pressure light would come on at idle. Hasn't happend since. Scary.....

So Warren, Now what..... Im going to plug it and see what happens with no Vacume advance.

Will let you guys know. I like to see if I get the same results as Shawn did. I don't think I'm going to go to 15 deg. however.

Also, any idea what the Series II Family means ???

And still wondering what effect, if any, setting the overlap using my Z1 mark had.

Thanks Alan, I would love to get 190s, Dreaming here. I also have the 11 blade fan. My engine mounted oil cooler is good, and clean there is no crap built up under the fiberglass shroud (I cleaned it last year.) What else could be causing the HOT temps I wonder? I think my temps hit 190 in 5 minutes of driving and climb from there till they hit 230. I have neverr had any lights come on so I guess I am ok there (so far). And all my head studs were tight in the winter, so the heat hadn't "bothered" them yet.

Shawn