Undeleting heat-delete: The cost of defrost?

[Tremelune]

I'm looking at a car with no heat, and I need heat. The chassis is a Euro '80 SC and the motor is a Euro 3.3L turbo. The exhaust headers are aftermarket with no exchangers and muffler is a Ruf R4. The interior controls were removed, as well as anything in the engine bay (presumably). I fear the cost of a new OEM system, and someone told me about an aftermarket solution from Alabama, but I'm new to 911 plumbing and in over my head. I would almost surely need a shop to get the parts in for me.

Is there anywhere I can find a diagram of the complete heating system so I can see what I'm getting into?

[Danny_Ocean]

The headers will be your biggest expense. You'll need heat exchangers to get suitable heat. For defrost only, some folks have used 12vdc portable heaters or hair dryers. Do a search using "hair dryer" or "blow dryer" and you'll find hours of reading.

[Tremelune]

I intend to drive the car in February in the Northeast...Full cabin heat is a must.

[Tremelune]

It also has a Ruf R4 exhaust...I wouldn't mind keeping that, if possible.

[Danny_Ocean]

SSI headers w/heat exchangers.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911M/POR_911M_EXHprf_pg1.htm#item0

Or, you could do what everyone else in NY does...move down here (SoFla).

[Tremelune]

That's what I'm reading...It smells like $2k for each SSI exchanger, and another $1k for both headers? Christ. My understanding is that they're rare on the used market. Is that so?

That might be swallowable, but I'm still worried about the rest of the heating system. I always get caught by the bits.

[Danny_Ocean]

One set of SSI's are about $1100. Heat exchangers are part of the SSI. The rest of the heating system is affordable. Blower motor, hoses, control cables. All those can be had in the used parts classifieds. Used SSI's are rare.

[wayner]

This thread

Modern Eberspacher heater installation

[Tremelune]

Holy crap

[Tremelune]

That actually looks pretty cool. You trade defrost during the Summer for very quick heat when the motor is still cold. Another upside appears to be cheaper cost of entry, and a another downside is that, well, it's unusual. Could I have an indy Porsche shop install something like this? Espar is the US distributor, apparently...Not much of a website. I guess I need to research gas heaters, too...

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

I intend to drive the car in February in the Northeast...Full cabin heat is a must.

What headers do you have? If they're special/custom, it may be worth boxing them for heat. Although fab work == $$$ unless you can do it yourself. If they're cheap junk (e.g. OBX or whatever), just don't bother.

Any mods to the 930 - and does it need those headers to support them?

If there's nothing particularly special in terms of modifications, you may be best off finding some RoW headers (which may be the same as the 3.2 H/Es - I was told they were when I took mine off, and they do certainly look very similar). The J pipe is obviously a 930-specific part. Plenty of folks have a set in their garage; at least the guys with cars that'll never be standard again are wondering why the heck they still have them, so they're not that hard to source...

Row H/Es support plenty of power just fine - and have the windshield steaming within 45 seconds of startup on full demist to boot. They may not spool quite as fast as aftermarket (and there is definitely a point at which they have to be abandoned in the quest for power) - but the heat is at least 10 times better. Ask me how I know....

At least on the '78 930's, there's very little in the engine bay to worry about; don't think there ever was a motor fan on my 930/60 - although maybe it was already backdated when I got the car..

The autoheat controller is kind of a bad 80's joke anyway according to most folks; I wouldn't bother. my '77 has flapper boxes controlled by two manual levers by the handbrake, one for each side - perfectly happy with that. At cruising speed the footwell heat outlet would have your toes roasting with the factory H/Es and no fan assist whatsoever, other than the motor cooling fan.

I'd suggest retro-fitting the manual lever or levers; simple, cheap, easy to maintain (I work my levers through a full range of motion every time I drive the car and squirt the cables at the flapper box end with white lithium grease once a year whether they need it or not).

In my experience, the difference between stock H/Es and an aftermarket header system with no footwell or engine bay blower - other than the really big-ass fan in the back -is this:

Stock H/Es: Start motor, controls to "Full demist". Steam from ice/condensation on windshield within a minute or so; start driving, gradually adjust direction levers from screen to footwells, need to open window and turn heat down within about 5 minutes - because your toes are starting to crisp. You may not get such good results if motor is mostly idling.

Aftermarket H/Es: Start motor, use cold air fan to clear misting. Start driving, turn heat down after about 20 minutes - or never, if window is open (helps prevent misting) and it's really cold.

[Tremelune]

Indeed. The motor remains CIS, but has numerous mods, so I don't know exactly what kind of adjustments would need to be made if I replaced the headers. The ones that are on there are stainless steel. I'm not sure of the make/model. They attach to a Ruf R4 muffler, which may or may not attach to OEM headers. I don't have much info on any of this. Here's a shot of the underbelly:

[Tremelune]

The car is a Euro '80 SC with a Euro '84 930 motor.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

Indeed. The motor remains CIS, but has numerous mods, so I don't know exactly what kind of adjustments would need to be made if I replaced the headers.

I think that you need to establish what you have, what has been done to it and what sort of state the tune is in. I'd rate that as a Really Good Thing to take care of before you go WOT too many times.

Otherwise, worst-case, it could make the cost of a set of headers look like lunch money.

Listing the turbo, intercooler, headers, cams, whether porting work has been done, what intake manifold is in use - that should pretty much nail down the power output.

The ones that are on there are stainless steel. I'm not sure of the make/model. They attach to a Ruf R4 muffler, which may or may not attach to OEM headers

Be surprised if the Ruf mufler didn't bolt up to a stock turbo outlet.

I don't have much info on any of this. Here's a shot of the underbelly:

Don't recognise the headers, maybe someone can identify them? What diameter are the primaries? They look larger than stock in your photo.

What about the ports in the head - have they been opened up to match?

Headers look similar in some ways to a set of maybe-Ruf headers I have pictures of. But not identical. My photo may be headers from someone else - and Ruf may have made several types/varied the design as well, of course.

I'd personally be concerned by the clamp around the expansion joint; my understanding is that that's supposed to allow the headers to expand/contract when they get hot (these get orange-hot at WOT), without stressing the exhaust studs.

(My GHLs audibly leak at the expansion joint for a few seconds after starting; then they get enough heat in them to expand and seal.)

You should probably ask someone who knows exhausts - and turbo ones at that - about that.

Try posting on the 930 forum. Folks there may know what they are - or even know the car.

The car is a Euro '80 SC

Uh, no. The car is now a evil bastard hybrid, every penny you spend on it is an investment of love you'll never see again, and purists will now either spit on you or run away screaming.

Stealth turbo cars rock - welcome to the dark side

with a Euro '84 930 motor.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. It may have started life as a RoW '84 930, but now differ from factory specifications (and settings) in significant and exciting ways that will affect all your other choices/options.

[Tremelune]

Originally Posted by spuggy

The car is now a evil bastard hybrid

Indeed...Kind of what I was looking for! I should have posted this in the 930 forum, I just forgot it was there.

If anyone wants to, ah, move this...go right ahead...

[Tremelune]

Posted in 930 forum:

Undeleting heat-delete...What am I in for?

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

Indeed...Kind of what I was looking for!

Heh. I knew I had to have mine too. Wasn't even looking for it, and been daily-driving it ever since....

With a modern turbo, they're not too bad to year round, (although it can be a white-knuckle experience with a 3DLZ). Sometimes you just have to drive with a bit of finesse. Think "there's eggs on the pedals".

Two things I figured out the hard way winter driving (didn't do either at first) - but now consider worth every penny:

LSD. 40/65 asymmetric lockup is awesome; saved me more than once on greasy roads. And nails the rear down on decel too.

Winter tires. Good tires that stay soft/flexible at low temps are great. Fit them about now and go back to sticky summer hi-perf tires around March. I just run two sets of wheels.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

I'm looking at a car with no heat, and I need heat. The chassis is a Euro '80 SC and the motor is a Euro 3.3L turbo. The exhaust headers are aftermarket with no exchangers and muffler is a Ruf R4. The interior controls were removed, as well as anything in the engine bay (presumably). I fear the cost of a new OEM system, and someone told me about an aftermarket solution from Alabama, but I'm new to 911 plumbing and in over my head. I would almost surely need a shop to get the parts in for me.

Is there anywhere I can find a diagram of the complete heating system so I can see what I'm getting into?

LQQK elsewhere!

[TheCabinetmaker]

Could an aftermarket gasoline heater be fitted in the front trunk? This was done on the 356 and 914 (along with a lot of VW's). I wouldn't be surprised if they werent put on some early 911's in the colder Canadian or Northern Europe markets. (dealer or aftermarket install?) They pump out lots of heat, very good heaters. They can be frequently be seen for sale on The Samba. You would have to have some duct work and brackets made, as I doubt you will find any for a 911.

A different kind of heater, works extremely well, with the plus of allowing you to keep any high performance exhaust you want on your motor.

I got one in a van, kept me warm in Alaska, and 'am putting one in a kit car becuase the large bore headers have no heat exchangers.

[Tremelune]

I could definitely install a gas heater, and it sounds like a pretty neat idea to me. Decouple the heating system from the motor completely and you wind up with a great deal of flexibility for modification. The downside is installing the thing. I'm not sure if most shops know how to pull the fuel or where to run the inlet/outlet hoses so fumes don't get into the cabin. It's relatively new tech for modern 911s. Most people would opt for the tried/true (if occasionally costly) heat exchangers.

Specifically, I'm not talking about VW stuff from the 70s, I'm talking about modern Espar Airtronic stuff sold to truckers.