Euro cars: "a big hit on value"?

[puzurinshushinak]

Back in the days when I was interested in getting an SC, a Northern California appraiser told me to avoid european spec cars because they were a big hit on value.

Do you think this holds good for early cars as well? Or are they so rare compared to SCs that the buying public doesn't care?

[SeaDweller]

That's a crock.......I've read this elsewhere, and there's no reason why a ROW car should/would be worth even a dollar less than a US car.

My ROW car is pretty "rare" from what I'm told, being that it has manual windows, no sunroof, no cruise control, etc. If it was properly "Americanized," then there should be nothing that would impact the value.

[Wayne 962]

That's actually very untrue. The European cars were often imported by hack jobs who shipped the cars here, and then added on bumpers, taillamps, and other items until the cars were made to meet specification for the US market.

Very often, these cars are missing items, and there is almost no legal way to get one of these cars registered in the State of California. These are sometimes called gray market cars, and are especially prevalent with the mid-eighties 911 Turbos, which were not imported into the US by Porsche.

Another issue is parts. It's nearly impossible to find fuel injection parts for the European cars over here (the parts that are specific to the Euro models, like the fuel distributor), because none of the dealers stock them. They also cannot special order them either (due to some regulations that we don't fully understand). We cannot special order European fuel injection parts for any of our customers. This makes it very difficult to service a European car here.

Regardless of the condition of the car, the Euro models will fetch lower prices because of the 'hassle' reasons above...

-Wayne

[thrown_hammer]

I saw a "euro" 1974 Carrera this weekend. It had the 210HP MFI carrera drivetrain. I would assume something like this would be worth as much or more than a US 1974 Carrera with its 911S spec drivetrain?

[steve rush]

It is very easy to track grey market cars (not just Porsche) at both of the Dealer Only auctions in the Seattle area. You can look at prices and see what is either a salvage title or ROW usually just by the price at time of sale. Even before looking at the details of sale..i.e. equipment etc. You do not notice this on '73 or older nearly as much. 1965 and older has no difference in price. This is the wholesale market not the street value.
All the best
steve

[Early_S_Man]

Shawn,

The European Carrera 2.7 ... in any vintage, '74 thru '76, would definitely be the exception to the rule on gray market cars!

Your grouping it with any of the USA 2.7's in value is inappropriate ... in reality it would be more valuable than any USA SC in comparable condition!

[puzurinshushinak]

Thanks for the input guys.

Let's get down to brass tacks: would you walk away from a 2.2 S because it was Italian?

[thrown_hammer]

S_MAN,
I would never do anything "inappropriate" on purpose!

[speeder]

The 2.2S example would not be comparable because there was virtually no difference in specs between U.S. and ROW cars when it was new, therefore no "federalising" (converting) would need to be done.

The "grey market" flourished in the early '80's, when the dollar was strong, regulations had not quite caught up with fly-by-night importers, and 930's were not imported to the U.S. Many SC's and 3.2 carrera's were also brought over. There was a pretty big hit on resale value when cars were newer, (and dealers wouldn't touch them in CA.), now they are so old and relatively cheap that it's probably not as big a deal, IMO. One important thing, though, unless you get believable documentation w/ date of importation and who did the work, (these places are all LONG GONE), true milage is anyone's guess since speedos were changed.

[s_wilwerding]

This forum made me think of an interesting question.

I just bought an 81 Euro SC from the guy who had imported it from Germany back in 1985. He had all the documentation from the conversion and, when he moved to San Diego, went through the trouble of licensing it in California (in probably 1992). The car has power windows, mirrors, and an upgraded air conditioner.

Since I have all of the documentation and since the car has a lot of "extras", does anyone think the car is worth substantially less than its American counterpart?

[Jadams1]

I bought a very clean 1980 Euro 911SC with 106,000 miles last november for $10,500. The car was from TX, had 14 years of pristine maintenance records but no DOT or EPA paperwork. I called the EPA and DOT after I bought the car and tracked down the documents for $19.00 I live in RI and had no problem registering the car or getting insurance without the documents. The car was properly federalized and not hacked up. I like having a car that's a little different from everyone else plus I have 8 extra horsepower to boot. I don't know if the price I paid reflects being a euro or a good deal?

[1980SC]

I also paid $10,500 for my euro 1980SC with 116,000 miles. I've been all through it, and can find no evidence of any hack jobs. No DOT or EPA paperwork, and no problems with registration or inspections. Cosmetically, the car looks almost perfect! Mechanically, I have a little more to do...

-Rob
1980SC euro

[1980SC]

Steve ,

I would pay MORE for your euro '81 than a USA '81. You have the 'good' engine with 9.8:1 compression, more HP, and none of the O2 sensor/frequency valve crap to deal with!

-Rob
1980SC euro

[BKOMAR]

I paid $11,500 for my 80 SC (euro) and couldn't be happier. It has its shortcomings, but nothing unsurmountable. Just looking at the Excellence price list makes me happy when I see that I bought a good to excellent car for less than what a car in "poor" condition is worth. To think I could be driving a Cavalier for the same price! Brian

[steve rush]

I think it is a point of view situation. When everyone thought Audi's were driving right on thru the garage with "unintentional acceleration" and there were court cases from coast to coast. Audi later proved that it was the driver with the foot on the wrong pedal. You could not see the foot pedals because of the dash. They fought an uphill battle and you could buy a Audi 5000 for $500. A couple of years ago Audi passed Volvo as the safest car and the rest of the their quality went up as well. Value "returned" not just because of engineering.

When a few botched after market import Porsches , MBZ etc hit the resale public and their value was low.....then ALL after market imports must be low as well. Some other euro cars are not as easily brought to US specs ( like MBZ's with door supports, headlamps, bumpers,the difference in fuel here and over there). What folks on this site don't see clearly is that they have the capacity to correct odd problem areas with specific Porsches. The general public that drives their new/used/gray investment into the DEALER who tells them parts are difficult......and some are, are embarrassed that they bought "wrong".
Pelican heads are only a percentage of the import performance buying public and when you can buy a good gray more cheaply and even in the Carrera, even get a "better" price/car, just smile
it's perception.

[Wayne 962]

There are exceptions to every rule... With the early cars, there is less of an issue. However, with the CIS cars, they can be a real hassle when you try to find parts for them...

-Wayne

[eurocarrera]

My car has thus far given me zero problems. I have a 1985 Euro Carrera, which came with bumpers and fuel injectors - I paid $16K when comparable cars were going for $20K a few years ago, so I got a little value there. It was "federalized" by an outfit in Los Angeles who placed a little black box on the top of the DME which was connected to the Oxygen sensor (which according to my mechanic was not hooked up, and who also told me that the only thing different on my car was the pre-muffler, tail lights and side markers - and of course the higher compression pistons).

I think anyone looking at buying one of these cars should have an inspection done, so you know what you are getting into regardless of euro or US.

Maybe Wayne is referring to the cars before 1978?

Fortunately, my mechanic used to work at Porsche, and he moved to California to get some land and some sunshine. He thought my car was a great bargain, and not very difficult to work on (not any more than a US Carrera of the same model year).

[Britwrench]

Wayne. we just went through a '84 Euro 911 Turbo and had no problem sourcing all of the fuel injection parts that we needed to replace. The metering unit can usually be rebuilt if there is a problem.

The Euro SC no-sunroof, no electric windows, no AC is an ideal track car candidate???

[dtfastbear]

Just wanted to weigh in quickly on the mid-eighties Euro car issue. I have an 86 Euro Carrera cab that I bought 3 years ago in California. I had no problems at all registering or insuring it. I have a stack of EPA/DOT paperwork and inch and a half thick that shows all the work performed and all the certifications.

The car has been no problem at all and people always are noticing the little differences - the bumpers, the sidemarker lights, the german stickers. I really enjoy both the uniqueness and the extra hp from the euro heads...

Wayne's absolutely right, though, that there were some hatchet jobs out there, so be careful. Make SURE the car is already registered legitmately and WATCH, IN PERSON, the current owner perform a smog check before you buy the car.

There is no mystery in this. Car fax recognizes my car as a euro, as does the California DOT computers AND State Farm's computer.

It's all good!

Dean

[Erakad]

Ahh, another testimonial. Mine is an 83 SC Euro. Bought in Dec with 113K...so far so good. I like the extra horsepower, yes some parts are different (as I've lately found out)...yes I have rust (sigh). However, it was formerly registered in CA where it consistently passed inspection, and seems to be an all around sound vehicle.

In addition to the hack jobs though...I knew when the cars were new one of the stigmas was the lack of US warrenty. Since no US dealer will touch gray market cars (for warrenty work), of course overall value is impacted. Today, despite the difficulty in acquiring some parts, I like to think like the others that I have more HP than my bretheren supporting a similar US model, and of course prices should be in the same range Soooooo......I guess the bottom line is.....see you at the starting line!