jack/lift damage on potential purchase

[montauk]

Wow, I haven't posted on this site for nearly nine years when I bought a 1990 944 S2 Cab. I got great advice then and I'm hoping for some now. The S2 was a great car. I put many miles on it and sold it a few years ago. Now, I've come full circle and am once again looking for reasonably priced 911. I was looking for a 911 when I bought the S2. I think I'd like to stick with 87-88 models for lots of reasons but I'm open to suggestions.

I drove a car earlier today that I like but there's some issues. It's a one owner 1987 911 Cab with 107k miles. Generally speaking it's looks fine and drives great. The engine sounds good, no smoke, plenty of power, shifter feels good, clutch pick up feels right, no squeaks or rattles. It really seems like a car that was well cared for. The price is 20k. Now here are the three items I'm having problems with:

1 - almost no records. The guy just never bothered to keep them
2 - the speedometer was recently replaced with a new one???? Why would anyone do that rather than repairing the old one. The mileage checks out compared to the car fax and the mileage listed when the speedometer was replaced. The new speedo shows about 400 miles.
3- If you look at the photos in the link, it looks like there's some small dents in front of the rear wheels. A previous buyer backed out, for unknown reasons, after he had a PPI. The dealer said the PPI only revealed a bent sway bar and something related to the bracket that holds the sway bar in place. These parts are on order and will be replaced by the dealer. I wonder if those dents are related to the guy backing out. Any chance I'm seeing things and those aren't dents? Could it be damage from a lift?

No records would be a deal breaker for a lot of folks but I'm not a collector so although I'd love to have them, it's not the end of the world. The speedo swap really bothers me. I think that might have a bigger impact on value than no records just because it sounds fishy. On the other hand, it's so easy to check records with sites like carfax, maybe it really doesn't matter. Those dents? I really don't know what to make of them. So it might be three strikes and your out or worth getting a PPI. The dealer has no problem taking the car to a mechanic of my choice.

1987 911 Cab

Thanks in advance.

Dave

[Doug Smith]

It almost looks like the type of damage you'd expect if the car had been backed off an elevated platform, maybe backed off a high curb. Did you look under the car for additional signs of damage or impact?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by montauk

1 - almost no records. The guy just never bothered to keep them

No records would be a deal breaker for a lot of folks but I'm not a collector so although I'd love to have them, it's not the end of the world.

I have to agree. A solid PPI would tell you if the car is well-maintained. The overall condition of the car can tell you how the owner treated it.

On my car, the records only went back about 5 years. They were pretty solid records, but not really the "all records from new" sort of confidence-building. The car was exactly as represented with no stories and no excuses, so I bought, even with the long list of owners and the lack of records.

[RWebb]

maybe, there was almost no maintenance. The guy just never bothered to do it

[tdw28210]

I bought mine with almost no records and no PPI. Carfax seemed to back up the car.

As for the rocker panel damage, my guess would be jack damage or rolled off a curb. Any chance the dealer has a copy of the PPI?

[rnln]

Some people never bother to keep receipts but maintain the car well. I am one, beside some major services at mechanic shops. DIY almost everything. Purchased Brad Penn oil in palette, filters in bulk, brake pads and other parts months (if not years) before they actually installed on the car. What are the receipts for? The condition of the car would be more precise

[twistoffat]

Car doesnt look that great. The door trim on the driver side is missing and the trim on the right is loose. The engine bay looks filthy and the blurry picture from the rear doesnt suggest a dealer with any real interest in selling the car. This car doesnt say "Cared for" to me. A PPI will tell the truth but the two dents to the rocker panels are not a good start.

[diverdan]

Sway bar mounts are a very common 911 failure. Its really no big deal. The fix is easy and can be much stronger than factory. I'm easy on the bumps, but am aggressive on corners (that's why I drive small sportscars.) Careless jacking is a typical culprit of rocker crush. I think the car deserves a good look see. Photos lie.

Diverdan

[montauk]

Originally Posted by Doug Smith

It almost looks like the type of damage you'd expect if the car had been backed off an elevated platform, maybe backed off a high curb. Did you look under the car for additional signs of damage or impact?

I never thought of that. Thanks.

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

I have to agree. A solid PPI would tell you if the car is well-maintained. The overall condition of the car can tell you how the owner treated it.

On my car, the records only went back about 5 years. They were pretty solid records, but not really the "all records from new" sort of confidence-building. The car was exactly as represented with no stories and no excuses, so I bought, even with the long list of owners and the lack of records.

At least this car is a one owner car.

Originally Posted by RWebb

maybe, there was almost no maintenance. The guy just never bothered to do it

I don't think that's true but it could be.

Originally Posted by tdw28210

I bought mine with almost no records and no PPI. Carfax seemed to back up the car.

As for the rocker panel damage, my guess would be jack damage or rolled off a curb. Any chance the dealer has a copy of the PPI?

I don't think I'd roll without a PPI. I did want to check in here for some opinions before taking that step. I'm waiting to hear if I can get a copy of that PPI. I can understand why the previous buyer didn't feel obligated to share it.

Originally Posted by rnln

Some people never bother to keep receipts but maintain the car well. I am one, beside some major services at mechanic shops. DIY almost everything. Purchased Brad Penn oil in palette, filters in bulk, brake pads and other parts months (if not years) before they actually installed on the car. What are the receipts for? The condition of the car would be more precise

This guy was not a DIY'r. The only receipt they were able to show was for the speedo replacement which also included an oil/filter change and some other normal stuff. There was one other receipt from about 10 years ago for oil/filter and some other odds and ends. There's nothing about a clutch replacement, major engine work, etc. I don't think it would be the original clutch but there's nothing to say that it isn't. There's also no receipt for the top but it's in great shape with crystal clear isinglass. I'm sure it's been replaced.

Originally Posted by twistoffat

Car doesnt look that great. The door trim on the driver side is missing and the trim on the right is loose. The engine bay looks filthy and the blurry picture from the rear doesnt suggest a dealer with any real interest in selling the car. This car doesnt say "Cared for" to me. A PPI will tell the truth but the two dents to the rocker panels are not a good start.

I don't know enough about these cars to recognize what you're referring to.

Originally Posted by diverdan

Sway bar mounts are a very common 911 failure. Its really no big deal. The fix is easy and can be much stronger than factory. I'm easy on the bumps, but am aggressive on corners (that's why I drive small sportscars.) Careless jacking is a typical culprit of rocker crush. I think the car deserves a good look see. Photos lie.

Diverdan

Is rocker crush a big deal? Is it worth repairing?

[AVDCAV]

Have a local club guy drive it " you'll know in 10 mins how the car
Was cared for.

[twistoffat]

I don't know enough about these cars to recognize what you're referring to.



When you open the doors there is an aluminium strip of metal to protect the bodywork when entering and leaving the Car. Its commonly called the door sill trim. If you look at your link the drivers side is missing and the passenger is coming off

In this pic you can see the trim on the bottom right of the picture

[wildcat077]

For what it's worth,when i bought my car four years ago the PO had a pile of receipts from oil changes and tuneups from the dealer,all because he didn't know what a spark plug looked like ... after owning the car for 10 years !

I do my own maintenance and have well over 25K in upgrades in my car since but the only records i have are most likely the sales receipts from Tarett,Fabspeed,Pelican,Elephant Racing,Apex,Patrick Motorsports,OG Racing,Kennedy Engineering, etc ...

What do you expect from a 25 year old $20K car ?
I think the car looks good and surely will need some TLC to get it to your liking,just get a thorough PPI and if it passes,then go for it !

Cheers !
Phil

[irl]

on the open trunk shot, the top left corner looks a little strange and very different than the right. ALso the left seam looks a very open on the closed shot. odd they didnt get a straight on rear shot. Sorry am not near my garage to see if this is what the corner should look like and it could be lighting.

[tdw28210]

The car ain't perfect, but it is an '87 ONE owner car with a new top that runs strong. My guess is the PO probably did not know much about his car and got talked into purchasing a complete new speedo rather than repairing the odometer. Rockers come up for sale from time to time on these boards, so sourcing parts should not be that big of a deal. DC Auto here in NorCar looks like the sell them for $175 a piece.

I would use the faults (relatively minor IMHO) the other Pelicans are posting here as leverage to get a better price. Also, the idea of having another Porsche nut to check out the car is a great idea. But be careful, you may crate some competition for yourself. ; ) If you were near Charlotte, I would be there today! ; )

[Ofishbein]

I don't understand why some people are putting such a great value on it being a "one-owner" car. If that one owner was not a good one, it could just mean that the car has been consistently neglected for 25 years.

[tdw28210]

Originally Posted by Ofishbein

I don't understand why some people are putting such a great value on it being a "one-owner" car. If that one owner was not a good one, it could just mean that the car has been consistently neglected for 25 years.

Because...IMHO lemons usually get quickly passed on to the next unsuspecting "lemonade maker". Is it possible this car was neglected for 25 years? Yes. Does it exhibit the hallmarks of consistent neglect? Not to me, at least in the pictures and based on the OP's description of how it drives. Rather it has "issues", but so does my '85 M491. Not because it is "neglected", but because it is a 27 year old car.

[OK Porsche 911]

What's wrong with just asking the guy what has been done? Look him in the eye and go with your gut feel. If it is a "one owner car , he should be able to tell you everything that has been done. I agree with TDW28210. Use the problems to lower the price. Do some checking on what a wholesale or fair condition price is. The car has been passed on once already so the seller may be inclined to deal. IMHO is what you see in front of you eyes is more important than a pile of receipts. If your still worried then YOU have a PPI done. An 87 with 107K miles, it's usually time for valve guides.

[JTL]

Either having the speedo replaced or not having records alone would be a concern. Having both of those items together sounds suspicious and would make me think twice. Also there are other items that need will certainly need attention.

'Didn't bother to keep records' - on an 911 - wth! And he wants top dollar Keeping in mind there is damage I would offer no more than $15k.

BTW, I keep an excel maintenance file on all my vehicles, even my old long gone POS Accord

[porsche930dude]

my car has the same dents on the rockers. i do believe it was from a lift because it was obvious where the lift pads were placed just inside

[DaddyGlenn]

1 - I don't think dealers care about keeping records. So the original owner may have had them and didn't give them to the dealer or the dealer didn't want them.

2 - If the car was serviced by a shop, not the owner, the shop would go with the most profitable fix, i.e. a brand new part and lower labor. Makes sense to me.

3 - This would be my big concern. Under normal street use, the sway bar brackets shouldn't break and the sway bar shouldn't bend. Heavy track use and the brackets may let go. That is an easy fix. Bent sway bar?! I'm thinking impact damage. Backing off a high curb or something worse. Gotta take a look underneath.

Personally, I would pass. There are many others out there and better deals.

Keep looking and expand your search geographically. Figure out exactly what you want, search the country for it and we can help with long distance evaluation/PPI. It will be worth a plane ticket to pick up just the right car. Hell, there are guys here who will help transport it to you, if it is too far for you to go get.