What track skills do use use on the street?
 

During a drive with friends, one noticed that I tended to use the entire lane and hit the apexes every time (he races on the side). I had not thought about it, just seems to be the correct way to do it. Other than speed, wondering what track habits and skills that you take with you to the street.

Heal to toe downshifting, hitting the apex in corners and four wheel drifts.

I drive just the same but I try to keep my 360s to a minimum if there is oncoming traffic ;)

I think that once you have the skill it's impossible to drive and NOT use them.

Driving home from the Phoenix Pelican gathering last Saturday I had a guy in a Cougar come flying up on my tail as I approached one of my favorite 360 degree transition ramps. Much to my delight, there was no traffic ahead.

He was sitting a few feet off my bumper at a fairly high rate of speed... every time I accelerating so did he. I guess he skipped threshold braking in school because as we headed into the ramp he finally backed off a little, and then a lot. My foot was on the floor until the last second, then I nailed the brakes and turned in.

I do a little right foot steering around the loop, accelerate and track out. I kept checking my mirror for the Cougar and began to wonder if he'd lost it in the curve. Finally he emerges. I resume a reasonable speed and he blows my doors off in the left lane just to prove his point. I grinned all the way home!

Lifting oversteer...as in backing into the corner.

Oops...you meant on purpose?

Alertness and extreme caution

i learned some new ways to pick up women at the track...........i've used them on the street but they don't work as good as a $50 bill:D

I struggle with the heel/toe technique. Maybe one day. I do finally have the double clutching down to an art. I've tried the left foot braking but don't see why any driver would ever use this technique, although I've heard of some race car drivers doing it.

Lee, I also look forward to 360 degree ramps. This is one of the few places where you can stay within the speed limit and still enjoy your car; and since the posted speed on the ramps are recommended, you shouldn't get a ticket as long as you maintain control.

Looking ahead.

left foot braking can be a major improvement in driving but i like to keep it for the track, the advantage is the time needed to move your right foot from gas-brake-gas lets the engine revs lower, this technique isn't for everyone and takes alot of practice to get it right.
in my front drive shelby omni it lets me keep the turbo spooled up under braking.
when done right in a 911 you can get right to the limits, but practice is the key, find a style your comfortable with and grow from there.

Track driving has made me much less adventurous on public roads. Too little can be predicted, and too many things can go wrong.

Exactly my experience.

To me, I think its because 1) the track quenches the need for speed, and 2) a few track spins teaches you that once you lose control of a car, you are only a passenger on a 2800 lb missile - not something I ever want to experience on the street.

I drive like an old woman most of the time. But when the roads are open and clear of traffic I like to imagine im on a race track and find myself crossing the double yellow to ride the apex ,but I havent yet peddled through a corner with the a$$ hanging out. Call me inexperianced or call me a wimp. I am learning though. When im in my 300zx im dangerous but that ive become used to after 6 years. Ive only been driving a porsche for 8 month`s and half that time was served in a 912. My R/S replica was only just registered 3 month`s ago after the 5 year project of building it.

Kurt Williams

If it's real late some nights I'll hit up Stunt Rd./Piuma Cyn. which usually quenches my need for speed as well. With literally no one on the cyn and the few that do show up are always going the opposite way (and you can see them coming up because their headlights are shining from 3 to 4 miles away) it's nice to let it hang out a bit before returning to where the cops care. I'll throw some ass and do some threshold braking along with heel-toe and rev-matching. We had a student in the class of 2001 (one class above me) pass away weeks before he graduated because him and his buddy decided to take his buddy's mom's benz 300E up to 130 on a street, they flipped numerous times and hit a light pole.......after that I stopped doing the stupid ***** on the populated streets during daylight hours. Don't even get me started on the losers here in the valley that try to street race you, I usually just laugh and give them the finger and pretend to pick my nose with it, heheheeh.

later,

amir

i completely spun the a$$ end of my car for the first time at my last autocross, and let me tell you, that was one of the most helpless feelings i've ever experienced. i can't imagine having that happen on the street in the middle of a turn with oncoming traffic...

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/pukey.gif

There is a book called the 911 perfomance driving handbook by Vic Elford (or similar title or name) and it talks about weight balance between the front and back of the car. I put some of this into practice on the track and it was great. On a very wet day in big 80 - 100mph sweeping corners in a mild four wheel drift I would find the front starting to slide out. Instead of thinking "Oh *****" I would back off the gas a bit and it would move more weight on to the front tires and they would come nicely back in. The same with the back wheels by puting the power on.

The wet track was good for learning just what the car does in adverse conditions.

One very wet hair pin I was understeering very fast towards a barrier and hit the brakes big time. Supposedly a no no with a 911 in a corner and the tires suddenly got excellent grip and it shot 'round the corner. This was another case of moving the wieght forward and giving the tires more bite.

Bill '79SC

that is a killer book. i've read it twice. there is another one i read that's really good called 'secrets of solo racing'. (there's a 911 on the cover). great stuff in there that can help your high performance driving skills, er, at least it could help me...

i don't know about the rest of you, but i'm one of those idiots who drives around the roads every day pretending i'm race car driving, whether i'm in my porsche or in my jeep. i'm not driving fast or reckless, mind you, but i'm heel/toe'ing like a bastard and making sure my hands are in the perfect position for turns, shuffle steering, etc... i also can't stop playing gran turismo 3 on my playstation 2.

[blush]

Like Randy said, the looking ahead/situational awareness stuff is directly transferable from the track. I blip the throttle to downshift but I was doing that years before I used it on the track. I never heel toe on the street as I pretty much only use the brakes to stop, not to slow down. If you drive at legal speeds you don't really need to brake for off ramps, just downshift so you have some throttle control.
I think track experience makes you more inclined to drive your way out of trouble instead of just locking up the brakes in an emergency.
-Chris

Adam - you're a riot! I've been heel/toe driving since I got the car and do it street and track. Elford's book is a great read! I always check my hand position and look for the apex on evey turn when on the street.

Thanks
 

I'll search out the book on performance driving and read up. One clarification, when I talk about track skills on the street, I'm not necessarily speaking of speed; but the other things that allow you to control your car better and take turns smoother, but this brings up a question:

If the posted speed on a freeway is 70 and the posted speed on the 360 degree off ramp is 25 (yellow sign), is this not a recommended speed that you should not receive a ticket for if exceeded as long as you maintain control of your car?

Also Randy, I once saw your concept of looking ahead taken to the extreme. On a freeway with moderate traffic, I did a double take when I saw a woman using binoculars to look ahead down the freeway while maintaining a 65mph speed. She would drive then put them up to her eyes for 2-3 seconds then drive more. I stayed safely about 2 lanes over and watched her; couldn't believe what I was seeing.

Sticking my finger out and pointing when a police car is approaching rapidly from behind with lights on. Doesn't work:mad:

Depends on which finger you use. ;)

Hitting sticks, cans, bumps with the rear tire only.

Binoculars??????? Talk about "extending" your vision!!!!!!!!!

Track time defintly reduces the need for overly fast street driving. Think it's scary to loop your own ride. A few years ago I had a chance to drive a fully race prepped 993 3.8L cup car at Firebird with some professional Porsche jocks. They kept telling me to go deeper into the turn. Then inevitably I looped it. 2 complete circles before screecing to a halt. He told me it was good that I kept the engine runnig, and get back at it. Very scary in someone else's expensive factory prepped car.
PS- forget about GT3, if you really want a challenging race sim try Grand Prix Legends.

Autobonrun, sounds like a Low Vision aid to me....dangerous. :eek:

Maybe she had a dog that liked to chase cars...

Track driving shows you your own limitations and keeps you, as has been said in this thread, driving sanely on the road, because you realise what an insane and dangerous place the public roads are. Every one on the track is going the same direction, albiet quickly, and is concentrating hard. Its the opposite on the road The track heightens the ability to look ahead and around and behind you, predict a situation, and make sure you are not there when it happens.

It also develops your skills such that you dont have think about the corner, the heel/toe and the left foot brake, because it all happens on autopilot, and you start driving from outside your car rather than inside.

Hey ChrisBennet- At risk of sounding like a self appointed expert, most people will tell you “de brakes is for stopping, de tranny he is for going.” The point of the heel/toe technique is to arrive at the corner under brakes in a balanced attitude with the appropriate engine revs/roadspeed and gear selection required to exit the corner in a rapid manner. As an instructor told me once, give your self the least number of things to do…..It’s a valuable technique, and once mastered, you wont be able to drive any manual car any another way. Its kind to the car too.

Just my 2 sheckles. YMMV.

stuart 87 carrera

I agree with Victor and Jack..... just too many variables not to be cautious.

Remember, at 70+mph you are not driving.........just aiming.

My neighbors wife was driving their 930 (beautiful car) in 2 gear around the posted 25mph 90 degree left turn (that is down the road from my house) and when the turbo kicked in (as she gave it gas) the turn she spun it. It went across a ditch, under/through a fence and came to rest up against a tree. she was okay and so was the car except minor scrapes and a damaged rubber lip spoiler (the fence got to it). I am glad that she was in the outer lane taking a left instead of on the inner part of the turn where she might have encountered on coming traffic.

could happen to anyone.

snip"Remember, at 70+mph you are not driving.........just aiming."

H20911

Care to elaborate on this?

Interesting anecdote regarding your neigbbours wife. Single car unforced accident, dangerous to her and any poor schmuck coming the other way. Should put this in the "are you up to a 911?" thread.

stuart 87 carrera

sure ........If something were to (all of a sudden) happen in front of you while you were doing 70+ do you really think that you are going to just drive around it........ or maybe aim around it.

Now I am not an expert but it would seem to defy physics to think that we would just change the car's direction at high speeds "with ease" contrary to it's current direction. That is why I say that at lower speeds we are much more in control and "driving" (and we are).

Hi Stuart,
I agree with you about using the brakes for stopping. I guess I wasn't very clear. As I approach a familiar 30mph exit I'm doing around 65mph in 5th. If no killjoys are in front of me, there is no need to brake. I just downshift to 3rd, blipping the throttle to match revs. Then I lift a little (60mph) to get some weight transfer to the front, turn in and then power around the off ramp at 60-65.

Of course your traffic conditions maybe different but I find very little need to slow down using the brakes even when travelling at 120+mph (um hypothetically :D). How? Situational awareness. Look ahead and lift off the gas before you need to brake. Benefits? Passenger doesn't notice (or wake up) when you slow down from 120. Tickets are avoided (I don't use a radar detector). And of course, accidents and close calls are avoided.
Driving 400+ miles to Watkin's Glen last week I think I used the brakes only a couple of times to slow down for construction. (OK I used them a bunch of times 120->80 bedding new brake pads but that doesn't count.)
-Chris

Re: What track skills do use use on the street?
 

You can practice all the skills you learn at the track on the street. (Thanks for removing speed from the question. ;))
What you learn at the track is to be a better driver with the idea that once you learn car control skills you can safely increase your speed on the track.
Proper hand placement and correct seating for starters, progressing to threshold braking, accelerating thru the turn can show the importance of selecting the correct gear, and learning weight transfer, front to back, side to side, are just the begining.
Slowly you'll learn to look ahead and become more aware of every car around you. The only catch is you're learning this on a race track at speed, a new environment.
All you are learning is to properly operate your car. The lights will go on when you begin to understand these car control skills of how dangerous public roads are with drivers of lesser skill and stay the hell away from them. You may even get to the point of letting them pass you as it's easier to keep an eye on them instead of constantly looking in your rear view mirror. ;)

Track: the faster you drive the slower you go.

Street: the slower you drive the faster you go.

The less you do to upset the balance or momentum of a car or your pace - whether jabbing brakes or accel on the track or lots of lane changes (looking for that fast lane) on the street - the faster you get from point A to B.

Try an experiment - see how little steering input you can use to make a familiar turn you drive every day. Use a little less lock and turn the steering wheel slower each time you go through the turn until you reduce input to the absolute minimum. It's a reasonably safe thing to do on the street because you can do it at or under the speed limit and learn a lot about weight shift/transfer and line... and it's fun.

I'd like to second Randy's no nonsense answer again. He walks softly and his reputation carries a big stick.

THE most imporant thing that I've learned is situation awareness. All the rest (heal toe, threshold braking, etc. etc. etc.) are tactical details.

By "situational awareness" I mean looking far ahead and be aware of what is going on with the cars and the road out to the limit of my visibility. It also means being aware of what is going on behind me and next to me. I routinely check my mirror once every 4-5 seconds. I also try to be aware of who is next to me and what my potential "escape routes" are at any time. For example; if someone is 75 yards ahead of me on a highway and a second car is in the lane to my right and 25 feet behind me, can I go left in an emergency? What will give the person behind me the best chance to avoid me? Am I about to be "lapped" by a faster car? What does the road feel like under the car? Basically as much information as I can assimulate that will allow me to drive smoothly and avoid an accident.

The second most important thing is "In order to finish first, first you must finish! (Reread my previous paragraph on situational awareness.)

The third is that if I see an accident unfolding ahead of me -- do NOT lock up the brakes!!! Use the brakes to slow down in a controlled fashion while looking for an "escape route" If a car ahead is spinning in a corner - aim for that piece of real estate. The car will most likely be gone by the time that I get there. If that doesn't look good, trail off the brakes and try to steer the car for the "best" escape route. Best means where you will do the least amount of damage to life first, and then property. At the same time I try not to get rear ended by any clueless individuals behind me.
I've had to use these "tricks" a number of times on the track, and the scary thing is that I've also had to use them on public roads! I once had car go into a "tank slapper" on the Long Island Express way just a couple of car lengths ahead of me!


Finally, when all is lost: "When you spin - both feet in! If in doubt - both feet out!"

Did I say that I agreed with Randy's response!

I rode motorcycles for a few years before I got a car. All, and I mean ALL living motorcycle veterans are good at looking ahead, being aware of what's going on around you and sensing where and when to move. With motorcycles, defensive driving means survival.

And finally, All and I mean ALL, drivers should be required to participate in autocross, drivers' ed or drivers' skills events. Let's say three times a year. I see drivers every day that clearly do not understand the physics involved in operating a motor vehicle. It's been a while since I ranted about this, but I'll stop at only one example: Following distances of 2 car lengths or less at highway speeds. If any of you are comfortable doing this, you should not be permitted to operate a motor vehicle, because you just don't get it.

Track --> Street Knowledge Transfer
 

This is a great thread, isn't it? I am happy to see that many others share my view that street driving is just way too dangerous to let it all hang out.

My favorite thing about street driving is the opportunity to work on smoothness in everything: steering input, upshifting, downshifting, braking. In the absence of the need to corner at ten-tenths you have all this free time to concentrate on smooth. This is absolutely the product of DE/Club Racing/Autocrossing.

The other positive transfer to driving on the street is behavior in CLOSE traffic situations. Examples: last weekend, I'm at the wheel of my VW Van driving in Manhattan. With no warning, SUV in lane to my left swerves into my lane, his car comes 6 inches from mine without contact. I pick him up in peripheral vision and reflexively check my own mirror and yaw to the right to avoid collision. Example #2- driving on highway, I'm moving left into the next lane over and accelerating to go around the car in front. At the same time, woman at the helm of swedish car decides to move out of passing lane and into the space that will be occupied by my Carrera in a fractional second. So I'm pinched between the car I was passing and the swedish car. Rather than panic and lock the brakes or yaw the wheel, I just take a breath and slowly move closer to the overtaken car while giving five quick blasts on the horn-- giving me time to safely retract from between the cars.

The point is, wheel-to-wheel racing desensitizes you to close proximity to other vehicles so that you can make intelligent decisions to avoid danger on the street. Not that you want to run around in "close proximity" if you can avoid it but it helps to have a reserve of training you can dip into to avoid beding Zuffenhausen's finest.

The biggest safety factor in a club race is the predictability of behavior of your fellow club members: you know they aren't going to slam on the brakes in the middle of a corner or move over when you are bearing down on them at 100mph. Unless they are in your class. . . :D :D Too bad we don't share that predictability and community with every driver.

I think you guys have nailed the issues. I'd consolidate the issue of looking ahead and behind into 'situational awareness'. I think most Porsche owners do bring this skill to the street. I know on more than one occasion that I've actually identified the need for an adjacent driver to change lanes before he did. By the time he reacted, I'd already moved over. One other trick I use in residential neighborhoods is to look underneath cars as you drive down the street. You can see if a child is behind the car before they ever run out into the street. I hope I never have to test this habit, but I continue to use it anyway.

The one area mentioned in this thread that I must work on this summer is understanding weight transfer better. Most simply use brakes and the accelerator to stop and go. I included, don't have a good feel yet for how to intentionally shift weight front to rear and left to right, when exactly to shift the weight, and which pedal is the best to accomplish this. Maybe after reading the book mentioned and a little practice, I'll be better. thanks all

The best thing racing did for me was to slow me down on the street. One bad habit was that I draft up behind before I pass. Also came from bike racing!