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-   -   3D Printing Hard to Get Parts? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/740284-3d-printing-hard-get-parts.html)

Matt Monson 03-21-2013 05:12 PM

Quote:

Well yea. I meant for the Average Joe.
Our 6 Axis CNC machines here are $1.8 million. Each.
I was assuming, within the context of the opening question, that average joe wouldn't be the one going into the reproduction of nla components. Mfi stacks aren't going to pay the loan on one of these printers. But an assortment of parts from various makes absolutely could.

panos 03-21-2013 05:33 PM

I think the technology will be more readily available to the average consumer in 10-15 maybe even 20 years. Great idea for reproducing nla parts, but it does not work out economically in today's world.

James Brown 03-21-2013 06:52 PM

jay leno talks about it
<iframe src="http://www.nbc.com/assets/video/widget/widget.html?vid=944641" width="" height="" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Tippy 03-21-2013 08:58 PM

My first experience with it a few years ago, I couldn't stop putting together and taking apart a bolt and nut.

Wasn't as impressed about putting together the 3D parts to a metal structure and fitting precisely as I was that you can make a bolt and nut. I was trying to find a "bad spot" in the threads of either the bolt or nut but could not.

Was sold.

proffighter 03-21-2013 11:23 PM

There is an exhibition about 3D printing in Zürich now. Was there, some really impressive parts to see. Especially the ones that are printed in one row, but have links etc. like a middle ages chain armour:

In 3 Dimensions

A friend of mine sells 3D printers too, as he is in machine tool buisiness. The quality is stunning, same strength etc. as the base metal

69911e 03-22-2013 03:41 AM

The 3D scanners are also readily available. You can pay a ton and get accuracy way under .001". You can also pick up a Xbox 360 sensor and take scans using free software. I took a scan of my lovely wife this way and printed a bust of her; worked quite well.
This would allow someone to take a broken piece, or organic shapes, scan it, and create a new one with only a modest amount of CAD knowledge and processing.

neilschelly 03-22-2013 05:48 AM

3D printing is already useful at the consumer level for tons of stuff, including limited applications in cars, but you need an enthusiast DIY mindset and some understanding of the tech. From the standpoint of availability/cost, I'd put it on par with laser printers for the home in the late eighties right now. Consumer 3D printing is progressing so much faster as an industry than even that though, because the limitations are overcome today by massively collaborative online communities of enthusiasts instead of many distinct hobbyists reinventing the wheel over and over again.

I'd suggest reading Makers: The New Industrial Revolution, for anyone looking to get introduced to the technology. Anyone with some CAD experience who wants to actually play with the technology should look for a local MakerSpace or HackerSpace to find someone who will likely let you use theirs.
-N

aschen 03-22-2013 08:30 AM

Its crazy how much this has been in the news lately. The technology is pretty well along. I graduated undergrad in 2000 and we had a machine in our lab. My current workplace bought their machine, which can print 12"x12" ABS nearly 7 years ago and it was only 40k I think. You should be able to use 3rd party vendors to print stuff pretty cheaply these days. The overhead is less than machining for sure.

I had a couple Ideas for projects to make on the side for lotus and porsche guys, but didnt feel comfortable using the company machine (me buying material of course). I think there are many good applications for the technology beyond prototyping.

When laser sintering and metal prototyping is a bit more mature, things will get really fun.

combatic 03-22-2013 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Brown (Post 7343625)
jay leno talks about it
<iframe src="http://www.nbc.com/assets/video/widget/widget.html?vid=944641" width="" height="" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Perfect video for understanding how 3D printing is used in the part replication food chain. Thanks for posting James! Notice that they did not 'fix' the break in the scanned part and the scanner picked it up and replicated it in the printed part? ;)

There are still a lot of trade offs with rapid prototyping that limit prototyping for direct use. Surface finish, color, structural performance, chemical, light and UV stability being some of the first things that come to mind in my experience using rapid prototyping with with resins and thermoplastic machines. Often times the performance and finish requirements will conflict with each other.

I am still waiting for the machine that will print ABS OR a temp/chemical resistant thermoset with a class A surface in the color I want =) When this machine arrives, THEN we can start talking direct replacement of parts no longer available. This day IS coming!!!! :D

The high butterfly MFI stacks for instance asfaik, can not be printed with a class A smooth high polish surface matching the original parts that in an ABS material (I would choose ABS for structural integrity). You could certainly print the entire structure though and have a working part in a red or black material color. (estimating here- each part would probably cost $4-600+).

combatic 03-22-2013 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson (Post 7343117)
We are using the technology both in prototyping and in manufacturing. Attached is a picture of our proprietary Cup Car sequential that we just finished designing and manufacturing. Originally we went with the 3d printing on the plastic oil lines you see because we were having a problem finding someone that could work in aluminum in the diameter and with the sort of radii that we needed. PRI was coming up and we needed to have it "finished" for the booth. After further discussion with the printing company we decided to use it on the production pieces. We've tested on it and it works just fine at gearbox temps of 200+ degrees. We haven't run a 12 or 24 hour race with it yet, but that will probably happen at some point. And it is not terribly expensive. We recently had a complete gearbox case printed. That cost $3500, but even that is 1/2 to 1/3 of what it would have cost just a year ago.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1363906938.jpg

What material/printer are you using for the oil lines? (if it isn't proprietary) Very cool that you are applying the printing tech to production parts. Seems perfect for (I would assume) are lower volume pieces that don't warrant injection molding/machining etc.

RWebb 03-22-2013 10:43 AM

can you guys talk about strength for the metal 3D printing a bit?

is it comparable to a sand cast part? low pressure casting?


also, can you make a mold (for say CF or FG layup, or casting metals) more cheaply with 3D printing? can you have a sensor move over an existing part, then use that to program the 3D sensor?

Elombard 03-22-2013 01:10 PM

I read an on line article where I guy did this for brake cooling ducts on a street track S2000. I thought that would be a perfect application for our cars, he did not share the cost but indicated it was not terribly expensive. I willl see if I can post a link to the article.

Cory M 03-22-2013 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson (Post 7343117)
We are using the technology both in prototyping and in manufacturing. Attached is a picture of our proprietary Cup Car sequential that we just finished designing and manufacturing. Originally we went with the 3d printing on the plastic oil lines you see because we were having a problem finding someone that could work in aluminum in the diameter and with the sort of radii that we needed. PRI was coming up and we needed to have it "finished" for the booth. After further discussion with the printing company we decided to use it on the production pieces. We've tested on it and it works just fine at gearbox temps of 200+ degrees. We haven't run a 12 or 24 hour race with it yet, but that will probably happen at some point. And it is not terribly expensive. We recently had a complete gearbox case printed. That cost $3500, but even that is 1/2 to 1/3 of what it would have cost just a year ago.

There was an article in Racecar Engineering or Racetech a few years back where one of the gearbox manufacturers or F1 teams was analyzing the lubrication of their box. They made a fullsize SLA model of the case in a transparent plastic and assembled the box with the rest of the production parts. They they put it on a test stand and ran it so they could see exactly what the oil flows and lubrication was. They iterated until they were happy with the results and then went straight to production with it. Pretty cool technology.

We have had one of our casting suppliers make rapid prototype parts and use them as the mold for investment casting. Basically they make the plastic part with some tubes attached, cover it in plaster, melt it out, and fill the empty mold with metal. Not good enough for production costs but allows you to test things out without spending $500k+ on tooling.

kach22i 07-09-2013 11:34 AM

UPDATE 07/09/13

3D-printing with liquid metal at room temperature
3D-printing with liquid metal at room temperature | Crave - CNET
Quote:

The researchers have spent years developing a method of 3D-printing liquid metal at room temperature. The resulting paper, "3D Printing of Free Standing Liquid Metal Microstructures," was recently published in the journal Advanced Materials.

ADDvanced 07-09-2013 12:17 PM

I'm a product designer and deal with CAD modeling and 3d printing all the time. For home use, nothing really beats Shapeways - Make, buy, and sell products with 3D Printing. They have EXTREMELY competitive pricing in a variety of materials, you can spec what you need and they charge by the cubic cm. I've ordered a few things from them and they've always been superb.

airfix4 09-08-2013 07:02 PM

I picked up my first 3d printer recently and have been both amazed and disappointed. Its certainly not plug and play, but after a few months I'm able to build/manipulate models to print well. The initial parts i'm thinking about for my '70 Targa are horn grils and lenses, using the proto for molds and vacuum form poly for the end product...thinking LED's should be incorporated as well...too many grounding issues with my original buckets. I also desperately need a holder to easily view my phone/GPS, as I often don't know where I'm going. ;)


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