California Cars enables me to create theory

[Kurt B]

Thanks to California cars selling me my Carrera and bending me over and giving it to me so hard I was only able to sit down without crying last February, I have a new theory.

The prelude:
Things that didn't work on my car are given below:
I was green, and as I have said, I forgive myself it, and it would not be this way if I could do it over.

1) A/C system was toast. The compressor was frozen. The temperature control unit at E-brake as almost completely disconnected.
2) Seat belts disconnected. Not just the buzzer pulled, but the wiring disconnected, cut or whatever.
3) Cruise control busted. Never worked.
4) Engine heater blower not working.

There is so much disconnected *****, I have no idea what the ef is going on. Turned out to be all the stuff I don't want, and none of it's critical: I'd have removed it anyway.

But I don't have ABS, Airbags, powersteering and on and on ...I don't even have automatic seats. So, none of my frills are critical. But I can't IMAGINE for one moment, dealing with a car that had all of these to boot.


964s, 993s, and 996s represent the breed of 911s that will not be valuable down the road: they'll all be 928s. Everything is dependent upon aging and fragile circuitry and the depenencies are so intricate, especially 993 onward, that you cannot circumvent them reliably.

I spent the afternoon looking for a wire in the engine bay that was simply 12v when the car is on, but 0 otherwise. There is no such wire. They're either hot all the time or not at all. The bentley confirms this. That's because the entire system is controlled by a maze of relays and switches strewn throughout the car you have no hope of dealing with on your own. The time required is just beyond comprehension.

This only gets worse at you get to the 993 and beyond. They're fresh and beautiful now, but later on, they will become nightmares. They will be so much more costly to own if you don't DIY, you will not own one. On the other hand, you cannot DIY because they are too complicated.There just isn't any effective means of doing so.

These cars will become hopelessly unreliable as they age, and they will be unownable.

It's a lot like one-use cameras. They take better pictures than the original cameras which the average man couldn't own 100 years ago. But they are only good once.

Can someone correct me on this?

[k9handler]

I am not going to say I agree, since where there is a need for these cars people will come up with a way to make them work.
On the other hand, when I first started working on my pcar a little under a year ago...I thought this was a complete mess and what have I done? Now...I love the car and I have managed to learn quite a bit and every day I gain a little more knowledge. Possibly the best part of owning this car is the pride in ownership and knowing that I not only drive the car, I know every square inch of the car, what makes it work, and also spend hours in the garage just admiring the car!

[Zeke]

Can someone correct me on this?

It sounds like you want to be corrected.

I can only say this: How many '84 Camaros or whatever the f@*k POS you care to name are running around with as many miles on them as most of the Porsches seem to have and run as well producing as much reliable, quality transportation and more?

I completely disagree with the statement that 964s and 993s are destined to be the 928s of tomorrow. The type of person who is a long term Porsche owner will see that that does not happen.

Everything is dependent upon aging and fragile circuitry and the depenencies are so intricate, especially 993 onward, that you cannot circumvent them reliably.

And why are you *circumventing* anything?

[adamnitti]

kurt, my father (an ex- exotic car hobbiest/resto specialist/mechanic) has been preaching the same sermon for years. it's getting harder and harder to d.i.y. these days. these cars are getting so freaking complicated. in addition to their complexity, many of the repair jobs can't even be done unless you have the dealer's special tools for the job. yeah, sure, your fuel-injected, computer controlled and computer-monitored new car may run better than your 1975 beater, but if it breaks down on you in a big way on a trip, you're screwed. at least with the older cars they are simple enough to fix with some simple tools and ductape on the side of the road. you have to be a plumber, an engineer, and a systems tech to work on most of these engines nowadays... you are dead on. while they work, they're wonderful... but what happens as they start to age? it's pretty scary to me.

still, i really appreciate the technology that has made many things better. i'm just trying to learn as much as i can about it so i can d.i.y. as much as possible for years to come.

[Kurt B]

Originally posted by Zeke914


And why are you *circumventing* anything?

That's a good point. Pricing the replacement parts just to get the central temperature control system up and running JUST so i can get the engine blower fan to work is beyond reasonable. Otherwise, I'm going to be in there trying to solder the chip myself--or at least diagnose it. Hell, I don't even know what to do with it. I'm not an electrical engineer, but for cripe's sake I have a degree in math. I know how to figure stuff out! Forget it. I can't do it.

My point is, whereas with the old cars (like my 75 914) there were just a couple of computer boards on the car. If they break, the FI fails and you go get a new one. What I'm saying now is, in order to get the engine compartment fan to work, I have to diagnose a wiring system that CANNOT be diagnosed by a non-pro. I'm saying, it's not just a simple board to toss in to get up and running, it's hopeless without mega $$. Not to mention, I just want the fan, not the AC. So then what do I do? And my car is really skimpy on the frills. I'm saying, for the 993 and 996...no f'ing way. You'll be paying 1000 clams to get one part just to get one stupid system, like a cooling fan to work and that there is no way to get that system working without properly and expensively getting a special, small production, precise electronic part that will cost a lot of money. And because everything's intertwined, you'll have a heck of a time getting rid of the parts you don't want unless you're an EE and like to spend 20 hours week fixing stuff in your pro shop.

That's what I'm thinking it will be.

[Brian993]

Kurt -

I understand what you are trying to say. But I disagree. Who would have ever thought a guy would spend big bucks on a 74-77 car. Most of these issues you speak of may never come to be. A lot of modern cars run flawlessly. I think the only time a car goes haywire is when some uneducated or yahoo do it yourself who has'nt got a clue botches it up.

I own a 993 and I do believe it will become a timeless classic as your car is. Someone will always be willing to spend the money or the necessary time to keep it in running condition. Doesnt mean some bonehead wont get it and turn it into a pandora's box.


Only time will tell. As for today I wouldnt trade my 993 for any other p-car.

[Adam]

Kurt's raised a valid point.

Imagine trying to repair the computer control for the electric decklid when it finally blows: You're talking inputs from the speedometer, ignition, battery, not to mention the little black box it's certain to have simply to control the wing at the rise and fall of the speedo needle.

I look forward to buying a 993 someday, but I'll need to make sure that I'm very friendly with a professional shop. Maybe I could marry the daughter of a Porsche Dealer Service Manager!

[Brian993]

Here's another reason to own a 993 -

[Brian993]

Just one more thing, the 993 has an OBD which in most cases can narrow down problems. They may be complicated systems but they do have a check and balance system. I realize parts are expensive so perhaps it is safe to say modern porsche ownership is not for the faint hearted.

[Doug Zielke]

Kurt....have you ever heard of the "Zielke Theory"?
It goes something like this:
If you can't *see* the spark plugs, don't own the car!

[nostatic]

Well, if the 993 OBD is anything like my wife's A8 system, it will narrow the problem from 100 possibilities down to about 50. You would think that a smart system would track the state of all the bits and give you insight, but as far as I can tell we're not there yet.

For an analogy consider guitar amplifiers. The old ones were point to point wiring and tubes. They could be crotchety, but the good ones would sing like you can't imagine. Then transistors came along, and things largely went south. They were "more reliable", but when they did break, they were never the same (you could solder a new op amp on the board, but the tone was different). Now we're at the point where the voicing is totally on a chip ("modeling amps"). Cheap to make, and when they break, you just change the chip. But the soul is missing...that's another discussion though.

[Brian993]

If your a gambler and you can increase your odds of winning by 50% thats one hell of an edge. Especially over the guy who's starting from 0.

[radcon]

Indeed, most autos are not intended nor are they designed to last forever. I don't think there has ever been an automotive engineer who made a life of 20 years or 200,000 miles one of their critical design criteria. The only engineers that think about those criteria are people who design big trucks - some of which will accumulate millions, yes millions, of miles over their lifetime. Why would an engineer spend the time and money to design a part that will last that long? Look at the cars on the road. The percentage of cars that are over ten years old is pretty small. We live in a disposable society where everyone wants new things. Most people don't want to drive an old car, regardless of who manufactured it. Manufacturers only care about new car buyers, that is where the fast and easy money is at. Would they really want to wait to profit from some part the fifth owner might buy 20 years from now? I doubt it. All the oem Porsche Parts that everyone on this board combined purchases every year isn't crap to Porsche. The percentage of people who buy and maintain older cars, whether it's Pcars, muscle cars, antiques, is pretty small and we just have to accept the fact that the cars will continue to break more often the older they get. I've already told my wife that when we move back to the mainland next year, our first purchase will be a new car for her - I've got better things to do than work on a commuter car. Her eight year old daily driver even requires too much maintenance for my taste. I like new cars with good warranties for one reason - if it breaks, they tow it, they fix it, then I go pick it up.

[Kurt B]

Originally posted by BigBpainta
Kurt -

I understand what you are trying to say. But I disagree. Who would have ever thought a guy would spend big bucks on a 74-77 car. Most of these issues you speak of may never come to be. A lot of modern cars run flawlessly. I think the only time a car goes haywire is when some uneducated or yahoo do it yourself who has'nt got a clue botches it up.

I own a 993 and I do believe it will become a timeless classic as your car is. Someone will always be willing to spend the money or the necessary time to keep it in running condition. Doesnt mean some bonehead wont get it and turn it into a pandora's box.


Only time will tell. As for today I wouldnt trade my 993 for any other p-car.

I'm not talking now. I'm talking down the road years and years from now, long after you've sold that car and gotten something else. Nothing in your car will break for a long time. I'm saying when it does, down the road, the cost of owning that car will be so much more than owning a new one or too close to that of owning a new one, it won't make sense--mainly because DIY will be out.

For what YOU use your car for, a 993 is a perfect fit. You have a great car. It is very fast. It is maintenance free. And I think the 993 is the pinnacle of Porsche sports cars. Hands down.

I'm just discouraged at the dependencies. They're overwhelming.

On the otherhand, if you could work on these cars, it would make the car super valuable because you'd either have to have lots bucks to maintain it, or a ton of skill...either way, it will make them more ferrari like...(like ferraris are considered now...not for the casual mechanic)


Doug: I agree.

[ZAMIRZ]

Kurt, you live in the valley? I'm south of Ventura Blvd. at De Soto. BTW, I agree I check out Auto Gallery and California Cars about once a month to see if they have anything interesting and it's always the same old stuff, they have an '83 SC cabrio racecar they've been trying to sell for ages.....the car looks great on their website, but see it in person and it isn't as interesting. Either way, I'm glad you enjoy your car now, besides who needs a heater in Cali and since you have a Cabrio I'm pretty sure the A/C isn't as important (I have neither in my car right now, need to hook the heater back up though......no defrost is a b!tch sometimes). Anyway, drop me an email if you're around here we should cruise stunt/piuma one of these weekends.

later,

amir

[Brian993]

Kurt -

No doubt thats true. This engine is stuffed in the compartment. Nothing like the 74. I was'nt intimidated by the 74 at all. If something breaks on this car (god forbid) I know right where its going. My mechanic.

[APKhaos]

This is fairly tricky ground, so lets take it slowly........

Imagine how most Porsche techs would have felt in 84 when all of their hard won knowledge on induction and ignition systems was superceded by a bloody little box under the drivers seat - with an f'ing puter in it no less. I'll bet many forecast the same fate that Kurt suggests.

Wind on 18 years or so, and what do we have? Almost all 3.2s are still running, and the DME is probably one of the most reliable fuel and ignition systems in the 911 line. Not perfect, but few owners are ripping them out to fit older systems [racers excluded, but even then most are heading in the Motek direction].

Now, the 80's DME technology is really crude by the standards of modern automotive electronics. Lots of discrete components on fairly rough boards. Lousy statistical mean time between failure. But they have been pretty darn reliable despite that.

The more modern [993 + ] electronics are more intrinsically reliable. The components are better, the packaging is better, the connectors are better. They should fail less.

Still with me? So here's my take on the problem. It started with the DME, and got much worse through the 964, 993, and 996.
There is NO BLOODY DOCUMENTATION!!!
Its not that these systems are incredibly complex, its just that any Pcar guy can get extensive documentation [factory and aftermarket] on mechanical systems - Porsche's factory manuals are superb. But try to get system docs or internals docs on teh electronic control systems and you are out of luck. It does not exist.

If we as a group can exert any pressure at all, then we should be demanding better systems docs for the later cars. Its just plain wrong-headed that every time Porsche [and other manufacturers] replace an electro/mechanical system with a controller & sensor package, they assume that nobody needs or wants documentation. Or, for the seriously paranoid, they work to keep that info within the dealer network and out of the hands of the very enthusiasts that keep the marque alive!

So, its not that the newer systems are less reliable - they are not - its that the info we need to debug them is not available to us. If it were available, there would be guys that can tell you the ways to debug and repair them the very saem way that Warren can debug an S, or that Bill Verburg can tell you the precise dimensions of ever caliper Porsche ever built.

Rant off.

[Kurt B]

No problem ...the rant is fine. I'm telling YOU, Porsche made up the temperature control system in my car as they f'ing went that year. HAlf the stuff is plugged in, and half is soldered right into the loom.
Granted, a 993 will not be like this...
Anyway, we'll see. I just want a GODDAMNED way to get my engine compt blow motor to work. If it had worked, I would not have ranted!

[jkeyzer]

Kurt, have you thought about brute forcing it, running a couple wires, and adding a discrete switch? At least until you can figure the rest of the system out (maybe never) it'll get you a working blower.

And that's from an MSEE.

[APKhaos]

Kurt,
I'm 100% with ya, man.
That temp control system is a bad science project at best. You have to love the thinking though - lets build a little computer that can push and pull the levers just like the driver would if he wanted to maintain a perfect temperature. Then lets let our bright young graduates work on it - they understand this advanced stuff. How that mess made it into production is a mystery to me.

Bought to you by the same team that designed a set of manual heater/fresh air controls that only three people in the workld really understand. Must be something in the water!

My blower is out as well. Had the motor rebuilt - it worked for a few weeks then failed again. Controller works fine, but the nasty little cheap junk motor is cactus.

Guess that makes me another failed MS EECS.