'74 appraisal, this one is actually for sale

[speeder]

I posted this car last week, but here it is in appraisal form. I have gotten some preliminary interest from a couple of Pelicanheads already, pending PPIs of course. It belongs to a friend who bought it the way it is, does not know Porsches, he even takes it in for oil-changes. He never drives it, so it's for sale and I will try to sell it for him. He will pay me a commision if it sells through me.


-1974 911 coupe, no sunroof or A/C
-CA. car, 2 owners (#1 from new till ~1997, #2 to present)
-total miles 160k
-polished original fuchs and (not valuable) stereo, otherwise stock
-no track or hard use ever, but it has been enjoyed properly
-serviced for 20+ years by Aurel & Don's exclusively (Seinfeld's mechanic).
-complete rebuild of 2.7 w/ all new parts and upgrades, (new P/Cs, case-savers, carrera tens., pop-off valve, valve job, etc.) approx. 10-12 years ago by A&D's, probably 40k miles ago. Trans also gone through at same time and new clutch, shifts great but 1st gear syncro is weak now again. (Only affects downshifting into 1st while moving).
-interior and paint very presentable but not MINT, crack on dash and stitching on pass. seat coming out. (Could be re-stitched).

More info will be available shortly when I have time to pick up the car and dig deeper, PPIs welcome of course. Important info is this: paper reciepts for work have NOT been kept, (or were lost), by P.O. She was, (and is), an affluent woman who had all work done at one garage. Keeping these papers for resale value was something that probably never crossed her mind. This is something that unfortunately I come across frequently with sellers who are not car enthusiasts, if something is not a tax write-off, they do not keep it, or lose it along the way. They do not understand how important these papers might be to a future buyer.

That said, I have spoke to Don at A&Ds, he knows car well and can and will vouch for all major work that he remembers doing on it, and he remembers engine rebuild well. Plus, any competent PPI will reveal most of this work. Fire away!

[Early_S_Man]

Denis,

That is truly an exceptional '74, and with its' history and rebuild with updates, should be more valuable than an SC without documentation or evidence of a rebuild! The '74 exhaust makes it a very desirable K-basic car, and with all of the typical 2.7 concerns already taken care of ... that should be a worry-free car for many years to come! Ask $18K, and expect to get $16-$17K, and do NOT accept less than $15K!

Other than wading through droves of bargain-hunters ... and current economic conditions ... you shouldn't have any trouble selling it in LA!

Hey, Nostatic! Here's a 'winner' for you!

[nostatic]

Great color, but $15K for a '74 S w/160K on the clock? I don't think that's even in the ballpark, no matter who worked on the car. And while we know that speeder is an upright fellow and we can believe his word (since there are no records), in the wild the lack or paper hurts the price, and any subsequent resale value. My guess would be somewhere between $5K and $10K depending on condition.

Then again, I'm in bargain mode these days...

[speeder]

Thanks for the response. I would not expect anyone to simply take my word on condition of car, a competent PPI will show what's up. Also, Don of A&D would not vouch for a car if he did not know FOR SURE it's history, he has been the only one to service it for 20+ years, he is the trusted caretaker to millions of dollars worth of Porsches and has NO stake in the sale of this car.

Warren, I wish that it was worth that much, but in L.A. $10Gs is TOP $$ for a '74. Also, digital photos always make things look perfect, car is VERY presentable, but those photos make it look concours. Unfortunately you only recoup a small percentage(if anything) in repair and maintenence bills, but it IS worth a lot more than a non-updated 2.7. Thanks again.

[Wayne 962]

I agree with speeder. In the condition described (not using the photos), the car will need a repaint, and some interior work. These are two things that GREATLY affect the resale value.

Also the loss of paperwork makes all the previous work nearly useless from a resale perspective. PPIs can only reveal so much.

It's not an 'S' model either. which decreases the HP output and value slightly.

A 1974 car is also a liability here in the state of California, where you will need to get this car smogged.

I've seen many good 1974 2.7 cars go for about 8K. Since this one has the many updates of the 2.7 rebuild, I would say that you would be able to convince someone to go up to $10K. With the proper paperwork, you could fetch another $2K, probably bringing it up to $12K, if you found the right buyer, and also assuming you repaired the ratty interior pieces...

-Wayne

[speeder]

Thanks, Wayne. I respect your knowledge of the real market for 911's, but a couple of disagreements.

1) Car does not NEED paint or interior work, it is a very presentable car as is. I use "presentable" in a much higher standard for a 911 than I would for an old Volvo wagon. It is a good-looking car, the cost of a paint job that would improve on what is there would be absolutely MORONIC on this car. It is a great 911 "driver" for the price of a fairly used Jetta.

2) The lack of paper records is a drag, but to someone who knows the Porsche scene, (like you), would you question Don's word given the circumstances? Remember, he has NOTHING to gain by fudging here.

3) "PPIs can only reveal so much". True enough, but among the things they can reveal are compression, leak-down %, oil leaks, visual evidence of updates, (case-savers, carrera tens., etc.), condition of every system of car other than engine, plus a Porsche specialist who sees, hears and drives several a day knows a POS from a good car in a New York minute. I can literally smell the bad ones.

4) It's not an "S". Agree with you on that one, but if it was I would appraise AT LEAST $2-3G more with this quality of rebuild.

Thanks for looking!

[Wayne 962]

Again, all here-say without the paperwork. Keep in mind that most people don't know this Don guy from a hole in the wall (I haven't met him, nor have I really heard of him either). That's not to say he's not good, but without the paperwork to back things up, it's a real stretch. Particularly for people who are not in the know.

You said yourself:

"-interior and paint very presentable but not MINT, crack on dash and stitching on pass. seat coming out. (Could be re-stitched)."

That to me means that the interior needs work. If the stitching is coming out, then the seat(s) are worn...

Did they use time-serts (no-nos) or case-savers 10-12 years ago (paperwork would say). When was the rebuild done (paperwork would say)...

All the work on the car is undocumented, which means that if the buyer of this car were ever to sell it, he would be up the creek without any documentation to back up his claims.

I'll stand by my previous statement that the lack of paperwork on the engine and maintenance brings the value down by about $2K at least.

Also, I've found that there is relatively little difference in price between the 'S' and the regular models in the 1974-77 range. In these cases, the work done on the engine, AND the condition of the car in general dictates the value much more...

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Besides, you said in your ad in the classifieds that you wanted $9500 for it. I think that sounds like a very fair price for this car, considering that the upgrades can be verified (at least verbally) with the mechanic...

-Wayne

[speeder]

Yeah, I agree. It's a $9500.00 or best offer car. I have bought many vehicles at charity or estate auctions, (not 911's), and have rolled the dice a little on "no paperwork" cars that have evidence of rebuilds or just good mechanical condition, if price was right and I wanted the car or truck. I think that even if this car was a complete mystery, (and it certainly isn't), it would be a good buy with inspection and PPI by qualified shop. Maybe I'll bring it by Pelican to buy some parts and let you have a look/drive if you want. Thanks again for your thoughts.

[speeder]

Also, I would go so far as to say that with a typical '74 that needs a rebuild, there is NO difference in value between regular 911 and "S" model. If they are all used-up, (especially w/ rust), they are $8.00 cars either way. If it's an 8 or above on scale of 1-10, (like this car), then there would be a difference.

Lastly, seats are not really worn, just stitching coming out on passenger seat, but not driver's(?). Same on my car, (82 SC), leather is excellent w/ 117k miles, but stitching coming out only on pass. seat. How the heck can pass. seat show this before driver's on two cars? Enquiring minds want to know.

[Bobboloo]

The seats might be swapped. If the release mechanism is on the wrong side of the seat then that's the case.

Bobby

Never mind I see from the picture that the seatback release is on the correct side. Dooh!

[Wayne 962]

Sure, bring it by! Tom used to have a 1974 Targa, but he always wanted a coupe. I showed him your ad in the classifieds. Maybe we can swing a deal for him...

-Wayne

[speeder]

Bump, I have now gotten to drive and live with this car for a couple of days, it is a pretty good driving car w/ a pretty tight motor and very good 915, (linkage could use tightening/new bushings, but syncros great even 1st), quick car, no smoke, sounds great, one oil leak on left side, (not enough to make mess under car, but it's there), good tires and pads/rotors.

Needs turn signal switch, an alignment, (too low in front and resulting neg. camber), car is straight and dry other than mysterious bubbles on bottom of front hood. Paint is presentable, could use a polish/buffer, has had paint work in a couple panels but close exam reveals no collision damage resulting from hard hit of any kind.

Inspections welcome, price is first $7500 U.S., I will only respond to phone calls, no emails. 323-972-3801. If you are not fairly local to L.A., CA. it will not be practical for me unless you have someone who can come to look at it and hand over $. Thanks for looking.

[speeder]

Bump;

[nostatic]

Denis, you and Andrew Luu need to get together

Andrew, are you reading this? This one beats the snot out of a 236K miles car with thrashed interior and paint.

[speeder]

That's why I bumped it; with my luck he is probably on the other side of the world.

[evren]

hey, nothin' wrong with being on the other side of the world!