Brand new tires or old worn ones for 1st track event?

R22tech · R22tech's Garage

I'm ready to install some new yoko AVS intermediates and it occured to me in 4 days I will be either doing an autox for the 1st time , or, going on a spirited (and I mean SPIRITED) mountain drive. My question is: which tires will be stickier; the new, non-broken-in ones, or the old , worn-to- the- wear- indicators- in -the- back ones?

nhromyak · nhromyak's Garage

Depends on the tires really.. I found my RE73s near bald (225 rears) were MUCH better than my new RE730 245/45s... Eventually (about 100 or so miles) the 245s are better.

I think the bald ones had more rubber hitting the pavement. Just be VERY careful of any water puddles... (in this HEAT!) People watering their lawns and such.

k9handler · 07-16-2002, 04:29 PM

I had new Yokohama tires on my car when I did my first autocross...and it was pretty damn hard to control. Now the issue is was it the tires, or my inexperience? Probably both, with me a little more at fault. Two weeks ago I did my second autocross on the tires and they felt much better, and I did much better on the course as well. Just give the new ones a go and have fun!!!

Early_S_Man · 07-16-2002, 04:33 PM

You don't want to use brand new tires for an autocross! Serious chunking and overheating of the tread-to-sidewall junction can occur! The new tread blocks are simply too high for optimum grip ... that is why Tire Rack offers tread shaving service if the tires are for competition use!

Get a set of 'track' only wheels ... and put the old tires on them! Best long-term solution, and a good way to use the old tires. Until you switch to 'R' tires, one solution that most serious competitors do.

pwd72s · 07-16-2002, 04:45 PM

Nice to know some things haven't changed. I remember a standing order I gave a tire shop...used XWX's in the proper size, worn enough for somebody to want new tires, but not so worn they wouldn't pass tech as far as tread depth for the "stock" auto-x class I ran. The worn tires simply worked better.

k9handler · 07-16-2002, 05:12 PM

damn, I guess I just don't have the right answer for you.
On the other hand...I am on a budget with my car and another set of wheels and tires (used or not) would put me over at the moment. So I ran with my new tires and had a great time, and did not notice any damage to the tires.

Now when the money is available, I do plan on getting a second set of tires/wheels and running a set purely for the track. I even would like to have another car just for the track and someday I will...but for now I can only get by with what I have.

mm86911 · mm86911's Garage

Doug - use the "experienced" tires for the autoX / mountain drive. You'll waste the new ones and handling will not be as good. If you're gonna get serious (try a couple events to make sure) then well worth the investment for second set of wheels. I'm running Yoko A032Rs on my spare set of 7/9 Fuchs - great wet or dry for track/autoX

Don Wohlfarth · 07-17-2002, 05:17 AM

1st time ax'ers only need to make sure their car is in good shape for their first event, no oil/fuel leaks, front wheel bearings OK, battery tied down, tires have no bald spots or cracking, wheels properly torqued, no missing studs or lug nuts, and every thing removed from the car. It will not matter whether you have street tires, DOT R tires, or slicks, you will not have an opportunity to take advantage of any improved grip. There is a world of difference between an experienced street driver and a 10-12+ event ax'er.

Do not become discouraged, it is not the equipment. You need seat time to learn to take advantage of the car as it sits. There's a hundred threads on this board about ax'ing.
The same is mostly true for your first de event, run what you brung. The exception is the tires for track events. For track events you do not want full tred street tires. Full tred street tires will work but be aware of what is happening to the tires. With full tred you will get tred squirm because of the depth of the tred. This can rapidly build up heat in the tire and cause chunking or possibly tred seperation in extreme cases. Tire Rack offers to shave tires to remove this excess tred. DOT R tires come with a tred depth of 4-5/32's and some racers shave these to 3/32's to keep from overheating the tires.
This does not mean that you should shave brand new tires to 3/32's for your first de, but there could be a problem and it's something to check after every session.
It will be hard to get the smile off your face until about Wednesday.

adamnitti · adamnitti's Garage

don't use brand new tires. it's a waste, and they won't be as sticky. i've got 2 sets of wheels. one for autocross/track, and one for street.

Dantilla · 07-17-2002, 07:20 AM

An important factor!

How old are the worn tires? If they are several years old and have seen too much sunlight and the UV rays that follow, they may be hard as a rock. I once autocrossed a recently purchased car with tires just about gone. "Perfect" I thought! OOPS! It was like driving on banana peels loaded with ball bearings. Showed up at the next event with brand new RE-71s and did great.

k9handler · 07-17-2002, 07:34 AM

maybe some people are on to something...depends on the event!

New street tires are not a good option for a track event (DE and such).
Used street tires are a better option due to the lower tread height.
Track tires are the best option, so get a set if you can.

And I still think the "bring what you have" to the autocross will work since the wear and tear is minimal if any since the speeds and length of the course is controlled for street/highway speeds.

NOTE: Some PCA clubs will not allow track tires at the event if you wish to compete in the standard classifications.

carnut169 · carnut169's Garage

I don't get it. The board is recomending that Doug use the old (read: bald and dry) tires for a spirited mountain drive over the new tires?

A couple have said get another set of tires for the track... but that was not the question!

I cannot see how he could benifit from using the old tires. They will have less grip due to the effects of time and wear on rubber.... that is why the very best tires (P01, P02) have different rubber formulations as the tire wears- helps with the grip.

I say throw on the new tires, drive around town for a couple hundred miles to break them in, and head north!

adamnitti · adamnitti's Garage

sean, i think what people ended up addressing more directly was the concern with using literally brand new tires at an autocross, since that was in the initial posting. i would agree; use the newer tires for the mountain drive if the others are approaching severe wear. it's just that an autocross is a totally different tire environment than typical spirited street driving provides. you are literally pushing your tires to the edge and over with every flick of the wheel.

R22tech · R22tech's Garage

O.K. The existing tires are 7-8 years old and are Yoko avs high performance ALL SEASON TIRES! They are approaching the tread indicaters on the fronts by about 1/16-1/32 and are at the indicators in the rear-the center of the rears look basically bald. The new tires are Yoko avs intermediates, an ultra high performance tire. The two sets of tires are both "AVS" tires, but my existing set is clearly an all weather tire. They are Z-rated and have a different designation after the "avs", I just can't remember what.
The thing is, I won't be able to put them on until Friday, if that, and I will be driving hard on Sat. regardless of the venue. So, again, will I be safer/stickier on the old ones or the new ones, given that the old ones I am used to, and the new ones will have less than 50 miles on them when I need them to be grippy.
OR: am I just SOL with either scenario?

note: At present I can handle the car pretty well and feel comfortable with a "tail-out" presentation under hard cornering, meaning, I am able to keep the car from spinning even if I lose the back end a little.

Early_S_Man · 07-17-2002, 10:53 AM

Sean,

I guess it doesn't really matter whether you understand or not ...

But, new tires have 'blocks' of tread approx. 10/32" tall ... and they are not stable under hard, dry cornering conditions. They won't be stable for several THOUSAND MILES ... until worn down at least half-way!!! So, a 200 mile drive won't help a bit to prepare them for an autocross! I don't guess you have noticed ... but, dry racing tires haven't had tread grooves or blocks for about 30 years now!

carnut169 · carnut169's Garage

Quote:

I guess it doesn't really matter whether you understand or not ...

You don't have to be rude.
Talking about old dry all season tires vs. new performance tires is a no brainer. Doug- call someone who knows tires (grand Turismo, Butler, Etc) and ask them. The other thing is that are you really planning on driving at the autocross Saturday? I was under the impression you were going to be doing some aggressive street driving!

The other thing is that for a 1st autox the driver should be thinking about driving smoothly, taking the right lines, braking at the right time, etc. Perhaps not wanting to tear up a a new set of tires would actually benifit a 1st time autoxer as he would be smoother to save tires!

R22tech · R22tech's Garage

YES, SEAN you are correct. I will most likely be driving aggressively with you and who knows through the mountains on sat. I would like to make it home in one piece is all. Maybe I'm wrong, but the last mountain drive was more than aggressive, I wouldn't have gone as fast if my tires were like they are currently. I also don't want to put on new tires if they are going to slide all over the place with the deep treads and all. Maybe pelican will get me those valve stems early and I can get the new ones on and do my own personal "heat cycling" as I am with Sean- the new tires would probably be better.(jees, I should hope so!)

I was also concerned about feel, you know, I KNOW how my car handles right now, it's like second nature. That will change with new tires for sure, so I was kinda trying to figure out if I would break away earlier or later with the new tires, since I won't have a "feel" for them yet.

adamnitti · adamnitti's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by R22tech
Maybe I'm wrong, but the last mountain drive was more than aggressive, I wouldn't have gone as fast if my tires were like they are currently.

no, you aren't wrong. we were driving like bastards... sure was fun, though. glad we made it home in one piece that day!

wish i could join you guys.

R22tech · R22tech's Garage

Speak of the devil- shipment from pelican arrived tonight so tires should be on Thurs or fri. I couldn't wait, so I went ahead and put the rear spacers I bought on tonight and went for a drive. It "feels" better, but I could just be excited as this is my only non-stock item so far (except for the 930s steering wheel)! I went with a baby step to the 1/4" spacers so I could still use the same lugs/nuts. Oh....I can feel the trouble starting already!