Permatune vs MSD

[snow96]

Permatune vs MSD, which is the choice. Lets get some real input on this. Porsche used Permatune, why then use MSD.

[Bob Kontak]

Legacy Permatune boxes are prone to failure from ideosyncracies in your electrical system.

They fail because other things are not perfect. They fail often and they fail completely.

What type of "real" do you want? Would you like pictures of both of my failed boxes before I installed MSD 11 years ago?

New permatune boxes are more robust according to Lonnie at Permatune and I trust the guy.

[snow96]

Bob, Set the old Permatune boxes down and step slowly, very slowly away. Just a simple question. So you are saying that the new Permatune is perfectly okay. That the old units had problems because the car was bad?

[Bob Kontak]

Yep.

That is what Lonnie says and back in the 90's the guy helped me big time over the phone working through all kinds of testing to figure out the problems. E.g., setting the reluctor gap with brass feeler gauges. He knows his stuff.

I am certain that if there were no issues on my side, the original P-tune box would still be there.

[Bob Kontak]

I am saying the new boxes have been modified to suck up some of the crap that can occur. Just call Lonnie. The dude is a God.

Yes - the old boxes were prone to failure because they were more sensitive to imperfection. There are guys still running old P tune boxes from the 1700's.

[RSTarga]

1. Original Bosch
2. MSD
3. Permatune

[tirwin]

Well, there is an old thread on here that quite passionately debates the single vs multi-spark subject.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by tirwin

Well, there is an old thread on here that quite passionately debates the single vs multi-spark subject.

Once the RPMs get up there the MSD just delivers single spark.

I am not sold on the multi-spark benefit of MSD. Low RPM - ok. But is that a real selling point? It's just a tougher box than the legacy permatune.

[snow96]

So it sounds like that each of the commonly used boxes have their own plus and minus. If you have a Permatune make sure its a current one. If its a Bosch make sure its also new so that the capacitors are good. Msd if you want more spark on the lower end. But what about power output? Is correct look for year of application a consideration?

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by snow96

So it sounds like that each of the commonly used boxes have their own plus and minus. If you have a Permatune make sure its a current one. If its a Bosch make sure its also new so that the capacitors are good. Msd if you want more spark on the lower end. But what about power output? Is correct look for year of application a consideration?

MSD is not the correct look. Put the thing under the driver's seat.

NASCAR puts two MSD's on the dashboard.

Power output? Steve Weiner from Rennsport systems notes (in a phone call) the MSD can draw as much as 28amps.

I don't know what the output is but I would be real comfortable it's sufficient.

Get your grounds sorted in a MAJOR anal-retentive manner regardless of what box you use.

I think any of the three are fine but if you are into the insurance concept, go MSD. That's my butt-dyno advice. It don't break.

[snow96]

Perhaps Steve Weiner and Ed Mayo would like to comment on this matter. Bob good point on the ground connections. If the Msd is drawing 28 amps then a power relay would be in order, right.

[tirwin]

Well, there is an old thread on here that quite passionately debates the single vs multi-spark subject.

I've read enough to convince me that I have absolutely no idea whatsoever whether single spark vs multi spark makes any difference. Either way it is marketing genius.

My car came with a Bosch. At some point it was swapped with a Permatune that is almost certain to fail. Last time I looked, the MSD was considerably less for seemingly the same functionality. For me it comes down to a push and price wins. I'd rather put the difference in $ into something that will make me smile a little bigger.

With that being said, get your mind out of the gutter!

[Krieger914]

I have an MSD unit on both of my 914s one of them is a 3.0 six. The one on my 4 cylinder car has been on it for 13 years. They aren't that expensive and they just work.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Power output? Steve Weiner from Rennsport systems notes (in a phone call) the MSD can draw as much as 28amps.

What I said was, 15-20 amps at peak RPM.

JMHO so take it as such;

1) Bosch boxes are now very old and electrical components fail,...specifically, capacitors and then other things. Most should be rebuilt for reliability.

2) "Permadooms" have not been the epitome of durability so I will not recommend, much less use one in anything. BTDT,.....not anymore.

3) MSD's, properly installed and correctly wired, are quite reliable and offer benefits beyond the multi-sparking feature. Engines that run somewhat rich are REALLY helped with these things. Opening the plug gaps to .040-.050" offers a better idle and more HP (seen it many times on the engine dyno). I've used MSD's on everything from a 917/10, to 3.0 RSR's to 935's (not to mention a ton of street cars) and they ran FAR better, instead of the factory CD ignition units.

Without question, the appearance of MSD's are not everyone's choice, however its not difficult to install one in an inconspicuous place or alter the appearance to look more like the OEM CD boxes of the period. I've done both so I know its just not a big deal.

Thankfully, everyone has choices so its easy to pick the one you like for your own car.

[Pazuzu]

There's also the often ignored MSD Streetfire CD box
Street Fire CD Ignition by MSD Ignition

It's cheaper than any of the other options, it's digital instead of analog (which means it's much stronger against heat and vibration and age, and uses slightly less power than the other options). It's powerful enough for any stock 911, and for most of our modified versions. It's smaller than the 6AL series, and it's black with aluminum accents, which means it looks vintage under the hood. Easy wiring, built in rev limiter, built in kill switch capable...

I don't understand why it's not used in most of our cars by now, or why the 6AL because the default MSD option.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

What I said was, 15-20 amps at peak RPM.

I was kinda close. Thank you, Steve.

[wwest]

Absent an "E & I" iron/metal core transformer no CDI can really work properly.

Which is probably why Porsche went back to the inductive coil use, as well as has ALL modern day COP ignition systems.

[Perma-Tune]

No doubt, MSD is the 800 pound gorilla in ignition, especially USA muscle cars. The appeal of the "more is better" approach has helped them promote the multiple spark idea. They make a quality part too but it is intended more as a one size fits all application where as the Perma-Tune is specifically designed for the Porsche engine.


As one poster pointed out, the multiple spark system only works at low RPM. At high RPM there is just not enough time to regenerate the internal magnetic components to fire more than once. Experience has shown me that if an engine is not tuned right, the multiple spark makes an improvement in, but still diminished, performance. If the engine is correctly tuned, we have seen no advantage in multiple spark other than better starting at very cold temperatures. We have done hundreds of dyno pulls comparing the MSD ( and many other brands ) to Perma-Tune. These tests were performed and reported by independent dyno labs, not Perma-Tune personnel, and have always made more HP with the Perma-Tune, even with muscle cars.


Most new electronics have gone digital, including the Perma-Tune. The components are much more reliable and do not generate heat, the nemesis of electronics. However, as wwest pointed out, there is no substitute for a transformer. Iron is being replaced with lighter and more efficient ferrite but the transformer has changed little from the days of Tesla.

[John at J&S]

For not much more, you could have an individual cylinder knock controller:

J&S Electronics SafeGuard Indivdual Cylinder Knock Control
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/images/pcb's/Universal.jpg

It's a high energy inductive ignition with constant energy dwell control, similar to Motronic.

Additional features include two adjustable rev limits, boost retard, nitrous retard.

Provision was made in the design for Porsche with dual distributor. Add the second coil driver for just $20.

[Eagledriver]

Originally Posted by snow96

Permatune vs MSD, which is the choice. Lets get some real input on this. Porsche used Permatune, why then use MSD.

Porsche never used Permatune.

-Andy