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-   Porsche 911 Technical Forum (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/)
-   -   3.6 A/C Upgrade (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/763046-3-6-c-upgrade.html)

tirwin 08-02-2013 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brads911sc (Post 7581689)
Pelican Parts - Product Information: 901-573-907-00-OEM

Stock is $807.

How is $600 overpriced? Seems to me that you get a 10% improvement for 25% less.

Seems like a good deal to me...

Wwest logic is quite interesting...
Very interesting indeed!

wwest 08-02-2013 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brads911sc (Post 7581689)
Pelican Parts - Product Information: 901-573-907-00-OEM

Stock is $807.

How is $600 overpriced? Seems to me that you get a 10% improvement for 25% less.

Seems like a good deal to me...

Wwest logic is quite interesting...
I have not, I NEVER proposed purchasing the OEM evaporator even when a replacement is required. I have suggested that the OEM evaporator might benefit highly from a good cleaning.

If you MUST replace the factory evaporator and are reasonably cost conscious then the Rennaire evaporator at $300.00 is the most cost effective by far.

RennAire Serpentine Evaporator - RennAire LLC


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375455786.jpg

brads911sc 08-02-2013 06:57 AM
So it's not snake oil. You just don't like the price point. Seems to contradict previous postings you have made. Interesting..

wwest 08-02-2013 07:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brads911sc (Post 7581769)
So it's not snake oil. You just don't like the price point. Seems to contradict previous postings you have made. Interesting..
No, while the scaling of the bar chart indicates a bit of Snake OIL marketing techniques that has become standard in the advertising industry. So Kuehl gets a "pass" on that one.

The core question becomes what is the factor of improvment of the Kuehl evaporator vs the OEM and/or the other.

For a simple layman that answer appears to be less than 1%, a LOT less.

Even so, where the Rennaire not readily available at half the price then the Kuehl price would look quite reasonable regardess of the lack of "improved" performance.

brads911sc 08-02-2013 07:18 AM
I have owned both. The quality of the Rennaire is not equivalent. There are also no instructions. No support. No warranty. Have to buy things you need like the tar tape and air diverter and metal hose pieces separate. Try to get Rennaire on the phone. They are about 20 miles from my house and I like their stuff... So not bashing. I use their compressor and hoses. But this is not an apples and apples comparison. You easily get stuff worth 50 with Kuehl that doesn't come with the Rennaire. Support and instructions alone are worth 50 on these products for a novice DIY. These are not things that can be put on a chart. Bottom line is that value is in the eye of the beholder.

The same is true with zims. Their hose was actually a hose clamp!!! And loose fitting!!! On the high side!! I spent 40 to have a hose created. Lol it works fine. But it's not an apples to apples comparison. If I earn 100 an hour I spent 250 in time and materials more that the stated price. No instructions. No support. No warranty. Not as sturdy. Although it works fine. So please don't make comparisons based on price alone...again, not bashing zims. I like zims. But not an apples to apples comparison.

wwest 08-02-2013 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tirwin (Post 7581654)
Based on your opinion, a 10% performance improvement

Kuehl has by no means indicated that a buyer would realize a 10% performance improvement via the use of the Kuehl evaporator. He simply presents a case that is non-real world and then allows the reader to make their own judgment.

over the competition is worth what?

Assuming, wrongly so, that the 10% were real and the BUYER had actual NEED (highly unlikely) for that 10% gain a 25% premium might be acceptable for a reasonably cost conscious buyer.

A 10% price premium?
At 200% most buyers would begin looking elsewhere for that 10% A/C performance gain.

wwest 08-02-2013 07:46 AM
Oil coolers: Our host offers 3 (4?)..

1.) Unknown supplier at $750.00
2.) OEM supplier at $461.00
3.) Tasker at $215.00
4.) Tasker (unpainted) at $215.00

Quite a range of prices assuming roughly equal cooling capability...

While #1 seems to be the most well designed at first glance the price point for the Tasker catches my eye. So I would choose the unpainted tasker due to the radiant heat reflective aspect.

But...

Assuming an oil cooler performance improvement is desired I would start looking at various Spal fans w/thermal switch to improve the performanceof the existing oil cooler/fan in my '88.

brads911sc 08-02-2013 07:52 AM
What do oil coolers for sale by pelican have to do with anything.

wwest 08-02-2013 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brads911sc (Post 7581796)
I have owned both.

The quality of the Rennaire is not equivalent.

By what measure..? Insofar as WE are aware they both may come from exactly the same asian source..


There are also no instructions.

For this simple task no DIY'er would bother to look even if there were.

No support.

That statement appears to be questionable..

No warranty.

That one is REALLY doubtful...

Have to buy things you need like the tar tape and air diverter and metal hose pieces separate.

Try to get Rennaire on the phone.

Yes, that's much worse than "click here for quote"...??

They are about 20 miles from my house and I like their stuff... So not bashing. I use their compressor and hoses. But this is not an apples and apples comparison.

Sorry, but at the CORE product level it really, truly, IS..

You easily get stuff worth 50 with Kuehl that doesn't come with the Rennaire. Support and instructions alone are worth 50 on these products for a novice DIY.

I have never done this and I truly don't see how instructions would help, seems comparable to changing out a flat tire to me.

These are not things that can be put on a chart. Bottom line is that value is in the eye of the beholder.

Yes, eye of the beholder..."look over here (while I do the majic "here"..)

The same is true with zims. Their hose was actually a hose clamp!!! And loose fitting!!! On the high side!!

I find that many modern cars use that technique.

I spent 40 to have a hose created. Lol it works fine. But it's not an apples to apples comparison.

If I earn 100 an hour I spent 250 in time and materials more that the stated price.

Isn't that EXACTLY what DIY is about? What would have been different with Kuehl, $200 vs $250...??

No instructions. No support. No warranty.

Not as sturdy.

Based on.....???

Although it works fine.

My point...EXACTLY..!!!

So please don't make comparisons based on price alone



Sorry, but $600.00 vs $300.00 kinda forces the issue, and, as you say, "it works FINE...
...again, not bashing zims. I like zims.

But not an apples to apples comparison.
How about a compromise..??

Apples to Apples insofar as the CORE product is concerned.

Apples to Oranges for everything else...

wwest 08-02-2013 08:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brads911sc (Post 7581849)
What do oil coolers for sale by pelican have to do with anything.
Kuehl brought up the subject matter, but trust, we'll get back to A/C mainstream.

brads911sc 08-02-2013 08:20 AM
Wwest... Have you ever compared a Honda lawnmower to toro? They are both lawnmowers. The Honda is 2x the price. And worth every penny. Which you see 5 years later when your toro deck is rusted out, the Honda still starts with 1 pull with no needed work.
The same core product. Night and day quality. You get what you pay for. Unless you have products side by side.....
Another analogy... Camry vs ES 300. Same platform. Same car really. Why would anyone waste money on a Lexus... Silly. It's all the same core product. Even same platform.
Hmmmm
Seems that you bought the Lexus snake oil. Should have saved 20k and bought the Toyota...

Bob Kontak 08-02-2013 08:22 AM
Brad said - "So please don't make comparisons based on price alone"

wwest said: "Sorry, but $600.00 vs $300.00 kinda forces the issue, and, as you say, "it works FINE..."

Bob asks: If a Chevy Cavalier will get you down the road, why do you own a Lexus and a Porsche?

Bob Kontak 08-02-2013 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brads911sc (Post 7581908)
Should have saved 20k and bought the Toyota...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kontak (Post 7581915)
Bob asks: If a Chevy Cavalier will get you down the road............
Brad, I think we got him. He won't be back. Or, perhaps he is just taking his morning nap.

It's not your job to steer folks away from keuhl (and Pelican) products. Much of your commentary is libel in form. Given this is a discussion forum, probably would never be libel in fact.

Not all can afford the kuehl kit. But as they told my daughter during job indoctrination at a high end retail store, "Don't spend customer's money based on your pocket book".

This shock is functional on an 88 911. Would you buy this one? Some would some would not. http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/smart/more_info.cgi?pn=KG5542-M201&catalog_description=&Rear%2520KYB%252C%2520%2 528%2532%2520per%2520car%252C%2520sold%2520individ ually%2529%252C%2520%2539%2531%2531%2520%2528%2531 %2539%2537%2532%252D%2538%2539%2529%2520

wwest 08-02-2013 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kontak (Post 7581915)
Brad said - "So please don't make comparisons based on price alone"

wwest said: "Sorry, but $600.00 vs $300.00 kinda forces the issue, and, as you say, "it works FINE..."

Bob asks: If a Chevy Cavalier will get you down the road, why do you own a Lexus and a Porsche?
Simple, I pay close attention to the value/dollar ratio.

The '95 LS400 now has over 270,000 and was only in the shop one time, timing belt at 234,000 miles.

Were I buying a F/awd SUV today it would be the Toyota Venza.

The Porsche's...Get real...!

Hobby...?

wwest 08-02-2013 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brads911sc (Post 7581908)
Wwest... Have you ever compared a Honda lawnmower to toro? They are both lawnmowers. The Honda is 2x the price. And worth every penny. Which you see 5 years later when your toro deck is rusted out, the Honda still starts with 1 pull with no needed work.

Both my "push" mowers and weed-eaters come from craigslist, mostly FREE because they need a little DIY.

Poorly as a hobby I refurbish Deere riding lawnmowers (also mostly free...), not the Lowes or Home Depot ones, however.

The same core product. Night and day quality. You get what you pay for. Unless you have products side by side.....

Another analogy... Camry vs ES 300. Same platform. Same car really. Why would anyone waste money on a Lexus... Silly.

Sorry, poor analogy..

Camry is FWD as is the Lexus equivalent, ES350. The LS400, of which I have now bought 5 (or was it 6?), is RWD, and there is NO comp.

It's all the same core product. Even same platform.
Hmmmm

If one wished to risk life and limb with FWD then I would recommend the Camry over the Lexus ES provided those were the only 2 choices.

Seems that you bought the Lexus snake oil. Should have saved 20k and bought the Toyota..

There was/is no Toyota equivalent to the LS400, nor any other marque at the time.
Mower....belly deck not installed...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375475009.jpg

brads911sc 08-02-2013 12:41 PM
Gotta love that snake oil. Seems you buy your fair share wwest. Lol

wwest 08-02-2013 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kontak (Post 7582003)
Brad, I think we got him. He won't be back. Or, perhaps he is just taking his morning nap.

It's not your job to steer folks away from keuhl (and Pelican) products. Much of your commentary is libel in form. Given this is a discussion forum, probably would never be libel in fact.

The TRUTH can NEVER be libelus..nor would be questions of truthfulness...

Not all can afford the kuehl kit.

It isn't really a question of "afford", I could well afford the price of Kuehl's FULL system upgrade, as could likely a good many of us. The question is value vs cost. For instance if only one of Kuehl's fender mounted condenser/fan assemblies would do the work of a single Rennaire one, and were roughly equivalently priced, I would deem that a good buy, just as I have for Rennaire...

But as they told my daughter during job indoctrination at a high end retail store, "Don't spend customer's money based on your pocket book".

This shock is functional on an 88 911. Would you buy this one? Some would some would not. Pelican Parts - Product Information: KG5542-M201
The front "shocks" on my 78 came from Performance Products, the rears (KYB IIRC) from the local VW dealer.
....

brads911sc 08-02-2013 12:50 PM
Wwest. Rennaire doesn't make a fender unit. You senile? I've told you this more than once. Wake up. Have a cup of coffee.

Bob Kontak 08-02-2013 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwest (Post 7582318)
Simple, I pay close attention to the value/dollar ratio.
You also like well built stuff.

You have not experienced a true statistical mass of "adequate" stuff failing because you would rather pay more for quality. You drove close to three times more than you should have with no issues regarding your Lexus timing belt - even if it broke. That's not gonna happen in a Cavalier, right? 95 Lexus was at least five times the cost of a cheap Chevy (hold that thought)

So how does a kuehl evaporator - a very sturdy high performance unit for x (twice?) dollars more - offer less value than a not so sturdy one that works fine, given your "stuff" buying history?

You can't know that it offers less value.

You may also be looking at discretionary spending differently today than in 1995. Jihad aside, adequate and functional, but not overbuilt may be just fine for your needs.

Ronnie's.930 08-02-2013 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwest (Post 7582327)
Mower....belly deck not installed...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375475009.jpg
I see your mower and raise you a bunny with a pancake on its head!

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/u...8716bf615a.jpg


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