Stirring the pot re: Zinc substitute for oil

[dentist90]

I searched the forums for comments on this particular product, but no hits. I was looking for zinc additives at my FLAPS and didn't find any, but they had this:



Zinc Hy-Per Lube

Claims to be better than zinc for cam/rocker protection yet safe for catalytic converters. Anyone have experience with this? Is it some new super lube or 50w snake oil?

[GaryR]

Buy an oil with the proper amount of ZDDP, properly integrated into the oil, and forget the "As seen on TV" products...

[brads911sc]

What he said.

There are plenty of choices. VR1, kendall GT1, Brad Penn, Swepco, Redline, Royal Purple, there are others... most of easily obtained.If price is your issue, you can get VR1 on sale annually for less than $4 a qt.

Originally Posted by GaryR

Buy an oil with the proper amount of ZDDP, properly integrated into the oil, and forget the "As seen on TV" products...

[Craig]

I use this stuff from Moss Motors, the equivalent of Pelican Parts for British sports cars.



Found here:
MossMotors.com - Restoration Parts And Accessories For British Cars

I use this with non-synthetic Castrol GTX 20-50. When I change my oil, there is nothing on the magnetic drain plugs, not even 'fuzz' from wear.

Just saying it works for me.
Craig

[CCM911]

^ +1

I was also given a few bottles of this product. From a pretty reputable P-Car guy.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by CCM911

a pretty reputable P-Car guy.

Why not let a team of professional chemists and engineers design the right additive package for your oil??

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by GaryR

Buy an oil with the proper amount of ZDDP, properly integrated into the oil, and forget the "As seen on TV" products...

OMG, yes.

"Doctoring" an off-the-shelf oil carries some bad consequences such as ring sticking which is not a good thing to have.

ZDDP must be balanced with a good detergent package and simply adding more of this additive (there are several kinds) results in problems.

Buy a good oil that's made from high quality base stock (Grp IV or V) containing an additive package that will protect your engine. You may need to import something good if its not available where you live since oil is still cheaper than engines.

[CCM911]

Point well taken.

Originally Posted by RWebb

Why not let a team of professional chemists and engineers design the right additive package for your oil??

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by CCM911

^ +1

I was also given a few bottles of this product. From a pretty reputable P-Car guy.

My engine guy would shoot me if I told him I was adding that foo-foo dust (that would be his name for it) into my oil.. and I think it would be justifiable homicide! Of course Dan J. has only rebuilt a couple thousand Porsche engines so what does he know..

[CCM911]

They have been using it in a twin-cam 356 and have had no ill effects to date.

[tirwin]

Just thinking out loud here, but it seems to me that buying something off-the-shelf that has the right amount of ZDDP seems easier than the alternative. Here's why. Our engines use oil, so every time you add a quart you need to add some more additive. It just seems like an opportunity for guesswork and what's the result if you screw up the chemistry? I just can't see the benefits outweighing the risks on this one.

[CCM911]

Look, I am playing the devil's advocate on this one.

Personally, I am pretty lazy, so using an oil with the correct additives is the easiest route.

But I'll check with a few techs tomorrow and see what they think.

[enzo1]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

OMG, yes.

"Doctoring" an off-the-shelf oil carries some bad consequences such as ring sticking which is not a good thing to have.

ZDDP must be balanced with a good detergent package and simply adding more of this additive (there are several kinds) results in problems.

Buy a good oil that's made from high quality base stock (Grp IV or V) containing an additive package that will protect your engine. You may need to import something good if its not available where you live since oil is still cheaper than engines.

when Steve speaks: I listen, no need to check with anyone else.... for me

[dentist90]

I guess this product begs the question: "if it's so good at preventing wear on high load surfaces (better than ZDDP they claim) and does no harm to cat converters... why has the oil industry not gone bonkers over this additive?" Cost maybe? Doesn't really work?
I just thought I'd throw it out there. There have been SOOO many threads on the right oil and the properties it must have for our old skool engines, yet no mention of a ZDDP alternative.
I use Shell Rotella 15w40 Diesel oil for my car. Most of the oils preferred are simply not readily available in rural Canada, or a lot of $$ ( I found Valvoline VR1... for $8.99/Litre. That's $100 for an oil change!) Besides, some of us Porsche owners are "blessed" to live in a geographic region where morning temps are commonly near freezing. Try finding a 1200ppm ZDDP oil in 10w40! 20w50 is just too thick for these cold start ups. But I was more interested in the chemistry of this 'polymer ester' for wear prevention. Any comments on this? It's not another PTFE (Slick50) product. I hear of people adding Techron to their fuel, yet oil additives are... verboten?

(Disclaimer: I am not involved with Zn-be-gone/Hyperlube, nor do I hold stock in it. Haven't even purchased a bottle. I haven't put this product it in my car, probably never will )

[71scgc]

ZDDP additives can clash with the oil's built in additive package, and actually reduce its anti-wear capability.

[db_cooper]

If you want a really big slug of zinc (near 1500ppm). Nice balance of Phosphorous and Calcium (1300ppm+1900ppm). A generous load of Boron (679ppm)and a splash of Moly (117ppm) look at Delo 400LE 15w40. Available at most FLAPS and Walmarts..usually on sale at less than $12 a gallon.

A very, very good oil, Group II+ and a thick 40W too. Not a synthetic but almost. Could be marketed and sold as a one off, refinery boutique, uber blended, ultra super special, breathtakingly expensive, astonishing hard to get 911 engine oil.

You will not need an oil additive in your 911 with this oil. See the link:

Petroleum Quality Institute of America

No, I do not have any economic interest in Chevron.

[GaryR]

$5 a Qt if you buy 5 GL.. - Amazon.com: Chevron 5G-15W40 Delo 400 LE SAE 15W-40 Motor Oil - 5 Gallon: Automotive

[Josh D]

I've been using Comp Cams break in additive to the sweet AMC 360 I built for my '71 Jeep pickup. There was a rash of camshaft failures on rebuilt flat tappet engines when they removed the zddp, so the cam manufactures had to respond, or continue to warranty flattened cams. I purchase it through Summit racing.

"COMP Cams Engine Break-In Oil Additive brings back the good stuff, delivering a specially engineered blend of extreme pressure break-in additives that have been removed from current off-the-shelf motor oils. Delivering added protection during the break-in process and beyond for all engine components, including the camshaft and lifters, COMP Cams Engine Break-In Oil Additive is compatible with any petroleum, synthetic, or blended motor oil. COMP Cams Engine Break-In Oil Additive extends the durability of internal engine components, protecting against premature camshaft, lifter, and valvetrain failure. Best of all, COMP Cams Engine Break-In Oil Additive has been proven to deliver long-term benefits with new or rebuilt engines through continued usage. Simply pour in a bottle for the initial break-in, run the engine for approximately 1,000 miles, drain the system thoroughly, and then refill with clean oil and another bottle of COMP Cams Engine Break-In Oil Additive at each oil change."

[Quicksilver]

One reoccurring theme in oil discussions is something in the vein of, "I've used [brand xxx] for [xxx miles] and it has worked great/wonderful/awesome."
- Did they do oil analysis? Nope
- Did they tear down and inspect parts? Nope
- Did they at least cut open a filter and look at it? Nope
- Did they use the oil in hundreds or thousands of cars throughout their life? Nope

So the most common affirmation is based on having a statistical sample size of "One" that happened to had a lack of a complete catastrophic failure. WOW!!!

A good example would be:
Take a well built engine with special needs like a 911 engine. Break it in correctly then install in your car and run the cheapest crap oil you can find on the far end of the bottom shelf at the parts store. While your at it put in the a crappy Fram filter and run it a couple thousand miles more then the recommended oil change interval.
Now you can expound the virtues of "Brand Crap" oil because that one engine failed to disintegrate!!!

Oil is science. Unless you are using science like having a statistically significant sample size, oil analysis or direct parts inspection, you should be using the advice of someone who's opinion is based on the above criteria. Someone like, say... Steve@Rennsport or Dan J who has "only rebuilt a couple thousand Porsche engines".

[1990C4S]

I leave the Tech Forum for one year, only to come back and find....yet another oil thread.

I agree with the comments above a) there are good oils with enough ZDDP b) individual examples do not equal a body of evidence c) it is likely ZDDP has some downside, or it would be used more frequently.

Why not use Brad Penn 10W40?