First-Time 911 Buyer Seeking Advice

[tumamilhem]

Hi folks! I'm usually on 914 World since I'm a 3x 914 owner, but I just sold one of my 914s and am looking to replace it with a 911. I "long" for a long hood, but since reluctantly accepting that they are far out of my financial reach, I am looking for a '74-'83 SC or a '84-'89 Carrera since that are a'plenty and affordable (still). The F and G models are my favorite 911s, btw.

You guys are the experts and owners, so I'd love to pick your brains about owning a G model SC or Carrera and hopefully get some guidance on what to look for, what to be aware of, what to avoid and how to select a good car. Any advice and input is greatly appreciated! I'll start off with a few basic questions but feel free to elaborate a/o expand on them and other things I should be aware of. I would like to find a well-sorted car that doesn't need a lot of mechanical work, reliable, good cosmetic condition and doesn't need new paint (I've seen a lot of botched paint jobs, painted and re-painted). I'm looking for something that I can reliably drive, is mechanically sound and enjoy right away. Also, if you or someone you know has a car I may be interested in, let me know! Thanks!

1. Other than horsepower, what are the differences in the SC models? The body and interior pretty much remained unchanged for 15 years (save the whale tail). Anything else to look for?

2. I understand the SC horsepower changed 3x during the G model run - 180 hp, 188 hp and in 1981 204 hp. When did it go from 180 hp to 188 hp and is there a difference in the reliability/mechanics with each engine incarnation? Is there much of a noticeable difference in each? Pros and cons?

3. How many different engines were in the G model run, what/when was the difference in horsepower in each and is there much of a difference in them regarding reliability and mechanics? Pros and cons?

4. I understand there was a different transmission between the SC and Carrera models. What are the differences in them? How reliable are they mechanically and is there frequent or costly maintenance on them?

5. What are the differences in the Carreras over the G model span? What are the pros and cons of them?

6. What are the main differences between the SC and Carrera models (other than varied hp)? Is there a noticeable difference in performance in hp among the models? Pros and cons? to each?

7. What should I look for when shopping for a G model SC? How to determine the best car, mechanically sound and reliability, areas of rust to look for, cosmetics (things that may be expensive to replace), etc.

8. What should I look for when shopping for a G model Carrera? How to determine the best car, mechanically sound and reliability, areas of rust to look for, cosmetics (things that may be expensive to replace), etc.

I'm very much looking forward to any input you guys can give me to lead me to a satisfying purchase of being a first-time 911 owner!

PS - Here's me with my very rare 1974 914 LE Can Am "Creamsicle" aka "Valentine" (Production Date 14 February 1974)

[Dooodahman]

People with more experience than I will chime in, for sure. But my recommendation is to get and read a copy of Zimmerman's book. The Used 911 Story, 8th Edition: Peter Zimmermann: 9780963172662: Amazon.com: Books

It has a wealth of information, and people around here, although an incredibly welcoming bunch (for the most part), are understandably much more willing to help once the asker has done the easily available leg work on their own.

I can personally vouch that the answers to many of your questions will be found in this book.

Good luck in your search (and nice 914!)!

[Joe Bob]

Most SC, 78-83 are US delivery 180hp, euro delivery 200+. The 3.0 is prone to head stud breaks. The so called Carrera has the 3.2 with the valve guide wear propensity. If the current owner has done a top end and did it right, the bottom end is normally bullet proof.

As with the 914 an engine swap is a common solution as the rebuilds can exceed the cost of a used engine. Mine has a 3.6.

As with the 914, a proper PPI is a good idea. Also, backdating is pretty easy to a longhood look. All it takes is $$.

Good luck.

[Tilikum Turbo]

I have found the 78-83 SC to be more responsive than the Carrera's from 84-87 1/2.

The 3.2 NA engines to me seemed a little lazy(did not rev like the 3.0), until 87.5 and beyond.

Good luck!

[seebobgo]

I would simply start looking around till you find the car that pushes the button. A lot of 911"s in Daytona too. SC or Carrera, look at both. Your going to spend bucks after sale no matter what you choose.
BTW; You can chip the 3.2
Have fun with it.

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by seebobgo

I would simply start looking around till you find the car that pushes the button. A lot of 911"s in Daytona too. SC or Carrera, look at both. Your going to spend bucks after sale no matter what you choose.
BTW; You can chip the 3.2
Have fun with it.

I haven't seen hardly anything for sale in Daytona (Craigslist and eBay). :/

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by Tilikum Turbo

I have found the 78-83 SC to be more responsive than the Carrera's from 84-87 1/2.

The 3.2 NA engines to me seemed a little lazy(did not rev like the 3.0), until 87.5 and beyond.

Good luck!

So performance-wise you prefer the SC to the Carrera? Is one better than the other as far as mechanics and reliability goes? What year did they switch to the mechanical fuel injection?

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

Most SC, 78-83 are US delivery 180hp, euro delivery 200+. The 3.0 is prone to head stud breaks. The so called Carrera has the 3.2 with the valve guide wear propensity. If the current owner has done a top end and did it right, the bottom end is normally bullet proof.

As with the 914 an engine swap is a common solution as the rebuilds can exceed the cost of a used engine. Mine has a 3.6.

As with the 914, a proper PPI is a good idea. Also, backdating is pretty easy to a longhood look. All it takes is $$.

Good luck.

What are head studs? What causes them to break and how is it prevented? Is there a way to tell if they are still good?

I'm not familiar with what valve guide wear propensity is. Is that a hydraulic valve system that automatically adjusts the valves?

What do you mean by PPI? Thanks for your input!

[darrin]

Originally Posted by tumamilhem

What are head studs? What causes them to break and how is it prevented? Is there a way to tell if they are still good?

I'm not familiar with what valve guide wear propensity is. Is that a hydraulic valve system that automatically adjusts the valves?

What do you mean by PPI? Thanks for your input!

Head studs are the headless bolts that screw into the engine case and hold the cylinders and heads onto the case. They're fastened onto the heads under the valve covers, removing the valve covers can help disclose whether they're still intact. They break due to thermal cycling/etc. and when broken, require removal from the case and replacement.

Valve guides are sleeves in the head that the valve stems pass through -- they are there to both position the valve so that it can be actuated by the cam and to seal off the combustion chamber. As I understand it, porsche redesigned the valve guides for carreras (3.2 liter cars) and caused them to seal TOO well -- this prevented them from lubricating effectively and once overheated, they wear out prematurely, allowing the oil used to lubricate the cams/rockers/etc. in the heads to be sucked into the combustion chamber. Valve guide wear would show up as both excessive oil consumption (when mine were shot, I added a quart of oil at each fill-up) and as bad leak down in the affected cylinders. Although valve guides are cheap, they can only be addressed through an expensive top-end rebuild. Although the later 3.6 liter engines used in the 993 (and 964?) have hydraulic self-adjusting valves, prior 911 engines (including the 3.0 sc and 3.2 carrera engines) do not and require periodic manual adjustment of valve clearance)

PPI - pre-purchase inspection, given the age and relatively unique issues these cars present, generally a GREAT idea to have an independent mechanic (i.e. not the one who worked on the car for the previous owner and not a porsche dealer) that's familiar with the intricacies of a vintage air cooled 911 go over a prospective purchase to identify issues (like pulled head studs, valve guides, rust, etc.) that you might not be aware of. As with a home inspection, you'll need to pay for this, but the info gleaned may save you from buying an expensive basket case and/or give you leverage in your purchase price negotiation.

[JEM]

what is a g model sc?1have an 81 sc and have no idea what you are talking about

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by darrin

Head studs are the headless bolts that screw into the engine case and hold the cylinders and heads onto the case. They're fastened onto the heads under the valve covers, removing the valve covers can help disclose whether they're still intact. They break due to thermal cycling/etc. and when broken, require removal from the case and replacement.

Valve guides are sleeves in the head that the valve stems pass through -- they are there to both position the valve so that it can be actuated by the cam and to seal off the combustion chamber. As I understand it, porsche redesigned the valve guides for carreras (3.2 liter cars) and caused them to seal TOO well -- this prevented them from lubricating effectively and once overheated, they wear out prematurely, allowing the oil used to lubricate the cams/rockers/etc. in the heads to be sucked into the combustion chamber. Valve guide wear would show up as both excessive oil consumption (when mine were shot, I added a quart of oil at each fill-up) and as bad leak down in the affected cylinders. Although valve guides are cheap, they can only be addressed through an expensive top-end rebuild. Although the later 3.6 liter engines used in the 993 (and 964?) have hydraulic self-adjusting valves, prior 911 engines (including the 3.0 sc and 3.2 carrera engines) do not and require periodic manual adjustment of valve clearance)

PPI - pre-purchase inspection, given the age and relatively unique issues these cars present, generally a GREAT idea to have an independent mechanic (i.e. not the one who worked on the car for the previous owner and not a porsche dealer) that's familiar with the intricacies of a vintage air cooled 911 go over a prospective purchase to identify issues (like pulled head studs, valve guides, rust, etc.) that you might not be aware of. As with a home inspection, you'll need to pay for this, but the info gleaned may save you from buying an expensive basket case and/or give you leverage in your purchase price negotiation.

Thanks for your info!

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by JEM

what is a g model sc?1have an 81 sc and have no idea what you are talking about

The first generation 911s (1964-1973 body style) are known as F models. The second generation 911s (1974-1989 body style) are known as G models.

[Eric H]

I have found the 78-83 SC to be more responsive than the Carrera's from 84-87 1/2.

Hi - as the owner of a stock 87 I've never heard this before. What happened at 87.5? Not sure if mine is pre or post 87.5... Thanks

[darrin]

I believe they changed the chip mapping in '87 (and switched over to the g50) which was good for a few more hp, but it's been my understanding that a properly set up and chipped 3.2 will produce the same power regardless of model year

[tumamilhem]

What are the pros and cons differences between the 915 and G50 transmissions? What year did they switch?

[Roswell]

IMHO find a 1988 911 with less that 100k miles. Find a qualified wrench and do the PPI. Plan on spending 19k to 21k on the initial purchase and then another 5k on needed maintainence. Good luck!

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by tumamilhem

What are the pros and cons differences between the 915 and G50 transmissions? What year did they switch?

The '86 Carrera 3.2 has 915 transmission and in '87 a new transmission (G-50) was introduced in 911. I've never heard of these G-model until you mentioned it. You probably know more about 911 than some of us here. I like your orange 914.

Tony

[darrin]

Originally Posted by tumamilhem

What are the pros and cons differences between the 915 and G50 transmissions? What year did they switch?

they switched to the g50 in 1987. The 915 is an older design that uses porsche's synchros (the g50, built by getrag, uses borg warner synchs) and a cable actuated clutch (the g50 uses a hydraulic clutch).

The 3.2 engine apparently pushes the limits of the 915 transmission's capacity (the 930 used a different, beefier, 4 speed transmission instead) and the 915 has a habit of wearing out 2nd gear (and first gear) synchros.

OTOH, the g50 is heavier than the 915 and allegedly has steeper gearing (for better EPA numbers) than the 915.

Although many curse the 915, I really enjoy the 915 in my '86 carrera -- I'm at 165k miles and my 915 remains "factory sealed" (i.e. it has not yet been rebuilt/etc.) -- it's important to get the shift linkage/couplers "dialed in" correctly, etc. While I need to be mindful to smoothly shift into second, I consider the 915 to be an integral element of my carrera's character. That said, the only g50-equipped cars I've driven were a 996 and 997 -- so I lack the context of how a g50-equipped carrera would shift/etc.

Best suggestion is to drive both and see. I suspect (but have no first-hand knowledge) that the 915 would likely share many of the "attributes" of a 914's transmission.

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by Roswell

IMHO find a 1988 911 with less that 100k miles. Find a qualified wrench and do the PPI. Plan on spending 19k to 21k on the initial purchase and then another 5k on needed maintainence. Good luck!

Curious, why the '88?

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by darrin

they switched to the g50 in 1987. The 915 is an older design that uses porsche's synchros (the g50, built by getrag, uses borg warner synchs) and a cable actuated clutch (the g50 uses a hydraulic clutch).

The 3.2 engine apparently pushes the limits of the 915 transmission's capacity (the 930 used a different, beefier, 4 speed transmission instead) and the 915 has a habit of wearing out 2nd gear (and first gear) synchros.

OTOH, the g50 is heavier than the 915 and allegedly has steeper gearing (for better EPA numbers) than the 915.

Although many curse the 915, I really enjoy the 915 in my '86 carrera -- I'm at 165k miles and my 915 remains "factory sealed" (i.e. it has not yet been rebuilt/etc.) -- it's important to get the shift linkage/couplers "dialed in" correctly, etc. While I need to be mindful to smoothly shift into second, I consider the 915 to be an integral element of my carrera's character. That said, the only g50-equipped cars I've driven were a 996 and 997 -- so I lack the context of how a g50-equipped carrera would shift/etc.

Best suggestion is to drive both and see. I suspect (but have no first-hand knowledge) that the 915 would likely share many of the "attributes" of a 914's transmission.

I suppose the preference is personal. I gather the 915 is more connecting to the driving experience and requires a bit of finesse in its shifting (like the 901, which I'm very familiar with), as well as the infamous 2nd gear (also of the 901). I also understand the 915 clutch us adjustable? And the G50 is not? Also the 915 is a longer throw (like the 901), which if true, I don't mind. I'm not racing my cars. Is one more reliable than the other? What are the problematic parts that I should be aware of (ie 2nd gear synchro on the 915)?

Thanks so much for your input, guys! It seems other than the two transmissions, there's not much difference in the 15 year run other than a couple engine changes and horsepower and some slight body styling changes after the first couple years. Among the different SC engines and different Carrera engines, are there any differences other than horsepower? Are there any problematic characteristics I should be aware of? For example, when the F model 911 engines had magnesium casings up to the 2.2 which would get too hot and sometimes warp, thus going to aluminum from the 2.4 and on. What about issues of damaging valves if the timing belt breaks? Didn't they engineer a remedy for that at some point?

Also, what kind of gas mileage does each engine get between the SC and Carrera?

Sorry for so many questions. I'm trying to educate myself as quickly as I can while I'm looking and ownership experience us the best knowledge than anything. As long as I've loved the 911, I dont have too much knowledge and experience with them, while I'm very prevvy on the 914. I'm also going to order that book the one member recommended. Thanks again so much, guys!