Intro and 911T Targa--could use suggestions
 

Hello, I'm new to the board, and to Porsche ownership. My purchase is a 1972 911T Targa. I live in Chicago, and rust-free cars are impossible to come by. Well, one came my way so I snatched it up. I can't find any hint of a repaint (if there is...I can't find it), and the interior is in great shape). I paid $5500 for the car. The catch...it doesn't run. The car is from the NJ area, and was driven to Illinois 6-7 years ago. The guy I bought the car from made the purchase for the same reason I did--this car appears to be original. He was told it has "engine idler problems". The car has had upgrades done (turbo valve covers, pressure fed chain tensioners), and I found receipts for the work orders for these from a dealer in Princeton, NJ. Unfortunately, I don't have a receipt for work completed, but I'm guessing it was done at this dealer. The mileage says 51,000mi. I don't have complete records, but have a strong belief this is true because of the condition of the body.
The car has sat for 6-7 years, but the engine does turn over by hand. I have some quick questions as to where I should start:

1. I intend to drain/change the oil and then make sure everything is hooked up correctly. Then my goal is to remove the plugs, squirt some oil in the cylinders, and crank it over several times to get some oil flowing, and try to detect if anything sounds strange. Sounds good---yes/no??

2. My concern is that the MFI pump and fuel transfer pump might be gummed up, and I can do some permenant damage to these if I keep cranking the engine. What does everyone think? Should I do these tests, or can I do more harm than good?

3. If the above two are OK, and electrical systems seem OK, I was going to install new plugs and try to get it to fire up. Still sound OK??

4. Of course, before driving, I will go through suspension, brakes, and likely clutch. So I will be removing the engine, and at this time replace seals, hoses, etc.

I bought the car expecting major engine damage, and needing a re-build. Now, I'm not sure if I'm that bad off. Anyway, comments are appreciated.

Also, what does everyone think about the price? I don't mind honesty, even if the thought is I overpaid. I really like the car, and am satisfied with what I bought. A rust-free car like this just doesn't exist in any quantity here in the Mid-West.

Here's some pics too:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/7_29_02C.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/7_29_02H.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/7_29_02J.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/7_29_02K.jpg

I look forward to further discussion with the board!!

Jay

Engine idler problems could mean one or two of the chain tensoiners failed? The chain tensioners suppport the timing chain spocket idler arms. If a tensioner collapsed and the timing chain jumped teeth, the pistons may have hit the valves. Turning it over by hand is better than not being able to but a compression test will give some quick information. If you have no compression, you may have bent exhaust valves. I would start there. Car looks pretty clean in the pics.

Congratulations on your purchase, and a mighty fine year I might add. Its good to have another live 72 in the area! Where abouts are you at, north, south, or west? There are quite a few of us Pelican heads up here, and its probably about time we got togetther again!

There are a lot of good answers here and some real heavy toads (knowledgable)as well.

If it turns over, we alwasy say make darn sure your ignition system is up to the task, CDI, points, plugs, wires, etc. Do all this before you goof with the mfi. Also make sure you have good fuel and a new filter and probably clean oil.

It might also be advised to set the valves on a car such as yours (you bought it and haven't seen it run and can't confirm its mechanical soundness). Done all that, I might be inclined to go further and check the cam timing, a little more time consuming job. Oh yes , compression check, do this early on as it is easy and it reveals other things.

Check mfi belt and teeth on pump gears, then check if the gears are aligned correctly. These things just flutter from my empty head adn others may have a better order, also I'm sure there are other things I have neglected. I'd say do all this stuff before farting with the mfi, unless you know for sure something is amiss with the mfi.

There are several great, outstandng articles about tuning mfi on this site, look at them, print them out at work and then read it all again and again.


And, uh, Welcome to the MFIWDP

If your close, I'd love to see that car sometime!

Thanks for the quick info. I guess a compression test should tell me if I have valvetrain damage to to a failed tensioner or such. The readings will be off since the car hasn't run in so long, but I guess it could hint toward major problems---thanks, I'll probably do that first. If that looks promising, then move on to some adjustments (valve, ignition, cams, MFI, etc.).

Dennis--I'm located in Chicago, downtown. About 10-15 blocks west of the Sears Tower (it was the biggest landmark I could think of). You're more than welcome to see the car whenever you might be in the area. I also, wouldn't mind seeing a running example of a '72.

Jay

Read your first post again.

If the chain housing covers don't have an oil line plumbed into them down low, the upgrade has not been done. Might be wise to pull both chain covers and see how it looks inside. If it still has mechanical tensioners, you should be able to tell if one has failed. If its been upgraded, I belive its also easy to see if it has collapsed (someone like Warren please correct me on that issue!)

I guess if you were told thats where an initial problem lies, you should fix/check that first.

Don't assume your pump is gumed up, and even if it is you can clean it out pretty easily by soaking it in cleaner. There are several threads on that as well.

BTW are you doing the work yourself and do you have a place to do it? Maybe we should have a Chicago pelican engine drop clinic!

;)

Welcome, and congratulations on your purchase. I think you have made a pretty good deal. If you are a DIY'er then you should be able to get all of your questions answered here. A compression leak down test and check for ignition spark at the plugs would be in order. It looks like you have a good plan to start your engine troubleshooting. Good Luck and I hope it is an easy fix.

Dennis-- The car does have upgraded tensioners (small oil tubes coming off cam oil lines going to the cam chain covers--see picture). So I guess...I would remove the covers and check for tension, see if the chain jumped, bad chain ramp, etc. But, what's the best way to check for a collapsed pressure fed tensioner (tensioner part itself)?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/7_29_02Z.jpg

Yes, I'll be doing the work myself. The car will go to my father-in-law's garage (about 2 miles NW of my place). And we will start working on it there...after we finish rebuilding, then re-installing the transmission in his '70 Caprice. Hopefully I can begin the Porsche work in about 1-2 months tops.

I'm always up for a Chicago Pelican engine drop clinic...my father-in-law and myself always have plenty of beer (my in-laws are Polish so there's always plenty of food too!!)

I hope that garage is heated!

I THINK that once a pressure fed tensioner is full of oil, it should not leak down, meaning when if it leaks down it has a failed seal and is done for. Having said that it would be good if one of our more Porsche knowledgeable fellas would rear his head and say yea or na. I'd be happy to join in any P-related festivities and have the appropriate tools for setting cams and such. The only wrench into me being present would be any engagements with the wife and 6 month old on that day.

back to work!

Come on Guys, I'm drunk by know and very disapointed that no one else has responded to this guys post. This looks like a clean 911T and none of you heavy heads have said a word! WTF. Us MFI guys must stick together! ou tell me when your working on it and I'll be there, if the wife dosen't object!

This is the best 911 site and no good responses, where are all the hard core guys!

This guy is new and needs to see how supportive we are!.

I'll give us till Sat morning when I'm not drunk and see who has given good response! Hell I'm suppose to be painting the dining room while the wife is at her mothers! Damn. come on guys!

Make this fella feel at home!

Looks like you got a great deal. I recently bought my first porsche (a 71 targa) in about the same condition for 7.5k.
I have some semi-major engine and transmission issues. It looks like with luck you might wind up with a slightly better car for less than I'm going to spend.

Another Triumph guy, Cool, my 69 is in serious limbo although we were going to make a drag car out of it, it is now just sitting like so many others... We have plenty of stock parts if you need any!

Welcome to the board, Jay, and it sounds like you got a great deal on one of the two best years of 911 and Targa production ... the 2.4 MFI era!

It is easy to tell if a new or recently-installed pressure-fed tensioner has failed ... the check-valve will have popped out, and the idler arm will be all the way down, resting on the body of the tensioner, and the plunger won't even be visible! On the other hand, if the chains are tight and the tensioner plungers are up against the idler arms, then the tensioners are likely just fine! One more thing to check for while you have those covers off is whether or not a set of those cheap 10 mm spacers are present between the old-style idler and the tensioner. If you find the spacers ... I strongly suggest ordering and installing a set of the double-bushing idler before you torque the covers back on the chain cases!

Save all of the documents on the following Pelican MFI Fuel Injection page to your computer ... and print them for a reference binder!

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_MFI/TipMFI.htm

One of the systems that will need extensive work before attempting to restart the engine is the fuel system, and I recommend replacing all of the rubber lines with OEM German hose that Pelican stocks. Two of the lines in the first diagram below, #13 & #14, have crimp rings rhat can be cut off with a hacksaw ... and ordinary worm-gear clamps can be used on the replacement hose. Please note that there is a small pill-shaped restriction orfice pressed into the short return leg of the #14 hose, and it should be retreived and pressed into the return hose to the tank ... with a bit of silicone grease, such as Dow Corning 4, 111, or 112.

You will need four sizes of German hose -- 9 mm ID ... supply line to electric pump, 7 mm ID ... pressure line to filter assembly - etc., 4.5 mm ID ... cold start system, 3 mm ID ... vacuum hose to distributor. Be very, very, VERY CAREFUL replacing the cold-start hose ... the nozzles are plastic and glued into the injection stacks, and no replacements are available! Cut the crimp rings carefully, and don't put any stress on the barbed plastic end when removing the old hose pieces! Engine fires have resulted from old, cracked cold-start lines ... thus the reason for replacing them should be obvious!

My suggestion is to drain and remove the fuel tank, have it steam cleaned and sealed at a private aircraft maintenance shop -- tell them it is for a car and doesn't need FAA certification! The lasty diagram below shows the fuel tank and fittings. The main supply outlet fitting #25 needs to be removed before the tank is cleaned and sealed, because there is a fine bronze filter screen that needs to be cleaned separately, and the sealant could clog the screen! Blow out the fuel lines through the tunnel with compressed air ... and if significant rust comes out, replace them! Remove the electric fuel pump from the car, and fill withj Berryman's B-12 Chemtool, and let sit overnight. Drain into clear glass jar, and seal jar for later examination. Refill with B-12 and let sit aniother 24 hours, then drain into another glass jar and compare with first drained sample for clarity and presence of any any particulate contamination. Rig temporary fuel supply to pump from portable gas can and power test cord at least 15 ft. long. Prime pump and test output until free of air bubbles. Run output test for 30 seconds and measure output quantity to see if it is 900 ml to 1000 ml.

Replace the fuel filter before attempting to restart engine. After all fuel lines have been replaced and fuel tank and pump are installed ... let fuel pump run (key on) for at least five minutes to purge all air from the system.

Good luck!

http://www.pelicanparts.com/911/911_...4-75/2-1-4.JPG

http://www.pelicanparts.com/911/911_...4-75/2-2-2.JPG

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Dennis--thanks for the support. Good luck with painting!

Early_S_Man---thanks a bunch for the fuel system tips. I thought of a few of these things, but not nearly to the extend you've provided. this will definitely help alot! I've gone through the Pelican MFI articles, and have been reading then over trying to gain familiarity with the system. I've already bound all the articles into a booklet I can take with me to read at work over lunch. I'll see how much of this stuff sinks in.

Thanks again everyone--Jay