Oil cooler upper mounting bracket questions

[frankc]

I'm gathering the parts I will need to replace my Trombone cooler with the 28-tube Brass cooler. After researching this project on PP, in Wayne's book, and PET, only one part still not clear to me - the upper mounting bracket. Let me lay out what I've been able to glean so far on this elusive part(s).

First, from the pictures I've seen posted here, there appears to be two types of upper mounting brackets that the factory welded to the back of the passenger headlight bucket, as shown below. I will refer to them as Type 1 (first photo below) and Type 2. I believe some refer to Type 2 as the "Z bracket".


Type 1:



Type 2:



Now, given the orientation of the mounting tab on the two OEM coolers that attach to the headlight bucket bracket (Brass & Carrera Cooler (Trombone cooler does not attach to bucket)), it would make sense to me that Type 1 would be best suited for the Brass Cooler, and Type 2 for the Carrera Cooler (the pictures below show the upper mount tab on the Brass and Carrera coolers). However, based on what I've read here, this does not seem to be the case.

Brass Cooler Upper Mounting Tab:


Carrera Cooler Upper Mounting Tab (red circle):



As you can see from the photo above, the Type 1 bracket seems to be the best fit for the Brass Cooler (no right angle adapter needed), but what is the part number for this bracket? The part number for Type 2 is readily known (I have one in my hand) and is 911.503.292.00, but I've never seen a part number for Type 1. PET illustration 801-05 (see below) shows the upper bracket for years 84-89 as 911.503.492.01, but that part is superseded to the Type 2 part number just mentioned (and came in the oil cooler mounting kit I purchased). Since the Brass Cooler was known to be used on SCs, I figured I would simply pull the upper bracket part number from PET - mysteriously the part is shown but the number is not listed on the page (part 3b). Could Type 1 be the superseded 911.503.492.01 part?

Upper Mounting Bracket in PET (red circle):



So, here come the questions.

1. What year/models received which type of upper mounting bracket?
2. Was the Type 2 bracket ever used from the factory with the Brass Cooler?
2a. If so, is that what the 'L' bracket part I see listed in some kit is for (930.207.921.00)? See picture below.
2b. If Type 2 was used with the 'L' bracket for the Brass Cooler, what is the proper orientation. Installs I've read here seem to imply this combination places the cooler too close to the tire.
3. Was the Type 1 bracket ever used from the factory with the Carrera Cooler. Methinks yes as the PET illustration shows the Carrera Cooler with an 'L' bracket to adapt to a right-angle attachment (see #35 in blue circle in PET Carrera cooler picture above). The ‘L’ bracket wouldn’t be necessary for a Carrera Cooler with the Type 2 bracket as far as I can tell.
4. What is the difference between 'L' brackets 930.207.927.00 and 930.207.921.00? Wayne's book lists the upper mounting bracket as the .927 part, but the kit on PP lists the .921 part (see pic below). Even PET appears to list both part numbers for seemingly the same part. PET lists the ‘L’ bracket #35 on the diagram (see above) as the .927 part. But in the part number listings for that diagram, it also shows a part #36, which does not even exist on the diagram, as the .921 part (see picture below).
5. What is the part number for the Type 1 bracket???
6. Somewhat unrelated, but does anyone have a measurement & reference point of where to attach the lower mounting bracket to the chassis?


'L' Bracket:


Mystery Part #36:



Note that my car (a US '77S) did not come with any type of upper bracket attached to the headlight bucket, so I will have to decide which type to attach (assuming Type 1 is still available). Another consideration is an approach that would allow either types of coolers (Brass or Carrera) to easily be mounted so that if I ever decide to go with a Carrera cooler sometime down the road, I won't have mess with this bracket again. It appears some people with cars which do not have any upper bracket are simply attaching the 'L' bracket directly to the bucket for Brass Cooler installations, thus giving them the correct orientation for mounting with a rubber isolator, and positioning the cooler very far forward for wheel clearance. I suppose this would work (for a Brass Cooler), but what I'm trying to find out here is what configuration(s) did the factory actually use when mounting the Brass Cooler, thus I will know what my options are.

Thanks,
Frank

[rusnak]

frank,

It can get really hot there in Texas. I would consider the finned cooler with the factory fan.

[javadog]

Frank,

As far as I know, the brass cooler was first used in 1980, for ROW cars. It uses the type 1 upper bracket, as you surmise. I belive the original part number was 911 503 492 01 and I would guess that it is no longer available, which is why it is superceded. It's easy enough to make one from a flat piece of steel sheet.

I don't have any links to an article showing the measurements for the lower bracket. If you have a little time, I could probably measure one of my cars.

JR

[LM3929]

Here are two pictures Borrowed for one of the posting showing the orientation on the brackets.

There is a good posting a few month ago on mounting coolers.

there are two versions of the bottom bracket one when it came from the factory and one as and add on.

I can get you pictures of both if it would help.

LM

[frankc]

rusnak,

Yes, I realize the Carrera cooler (with a fan) dissipates more heat, but given that I haven't tracked my car since moving to TX (and don't really plan to) and the fact that I have Webers, SSIs and only a 2.7, I haven't really experience too much of a heat issue here. So I feel the Brass cooler should be sufficient for my needs. Besides, if for some reason I find I do need the Carrera cooler somewhere down the road, I should be able to sell the Brass cooler for nearly what I paid for it, and have all the mounting hardware in place to easily bolt in the Carrera cooler.

I also have concerns with the way the Carrera cooler seals against the inside of the fender - it seems a likely place for dirt and moisture to get trapped. And if it's anything like the effect this has with the hose running from the fuel filler door to the washer bottle, my experience has been that this is not a good idea.

Frank

[frankc]

javadog,

If you could possibly take some measurements of that bottom bracket location for me, I would greatly appreciate it! I am also curious if it should be pretty much plumb, or is it at a slight angle? Once I get the bottom mounting point fixed, it should be easy to figure out where the upper mounting bracket needs to attach to the headlight bucket.

LM3929,
Yes, I have seen those pictures on threads here as well (I think I've found just about every oil cooler thread). The bottom bracket that came in the kit I purchased is the one shown in the picture you posted. The difference I noticed between this bracket and the pictures I've seen of brackets which came attached (welded) from the factory is that the retrofit piece has two holes in the vertical section where it attaches to the chassis, where as the factory installed bracket does not. I suppose this provides an option for those attaching the bracket to weld or bolt it on. I'm leaning towards bolting it on myself, as other similar pieces in that area are bolted on, why should this be different?

Regarding the 'L' bracket, I believe the configuration you show is for a "Type 1" bracket to mount a Carrera cooler - as far as I can tell, no 'L' bracket should be necessary when using a Type 1 with a Brass Cooler. What I am interested in is the proper 'L' bracket configuration when using a Type 2 bracket (since the Type 1 appears to be NLA) with a Brass Cooler. It should look something like this:



But I've read of people having tire clearance problems with this configuration. Could someone verify if this combination works ok?

thanks,
Frank

[p911sc]

Frank,
I ran into a problem with the upper bracket supplied with my cooler. It didn't work with my headlight mount on my 83 sc, which was the same as shown in your first picture, so I fabricated another bracket and it worked just fine. The right most picture below is the bracket that came with the cooler, the left bracket is the homemade version. I kept many of the angles the same but altered slightly to fit.

By the way, I would mount the top of the cooler first and then drill the holes for the bottom to fit. Make sure that you turn your steering wheel over hard before mount the bottom bracket, to make sure that the cooler clears for front wheel.

Good luck.
Rick

[frankc]

p911sc,

Thanks for the info. So at least I now have another datapoint that the 83 911s came with a Type 1 mount. I suspect the switch over to the Type 2 mount coincided with the Carrera (finned) style cooler (85?). I assume you were mounting a Carrera style cooler in your 83, thus the need for the right angle 'L' bracket?

Regarding mounting the top or bottom of the cooler first, I guess it doesn't really matter too much in my case since my car has neither the upper or lower bracket. Thus my main goal is to attach one of the brackets in a known proper location, and this will tell me where to locate the other. The reason I am trying to be precise about this is that all the suspension (and nearly everything else) is currently removed from my car, and this is just another one of those jobs I'm doing while everything is out of the way. I suspect I will somehow temporarily attach the brackets to the car until I reassemble the suspension, and then check for clearance issues before permanently attaching.

Frank

[javadog]

Frank,

Attached are a few photos of an original brass cooler installation, from a 1980 turbo. There is a body seam shown in the pictures, below and to the inside of the cooler. There is a portion of this seam that is about 4 7/8th of an inch long and is lower than the rest of the seam. The centerline of the lower bracket mounts about 2 5/8ths of an inch forward of the rear edge of this portion of the seam. The bottom of the bracket is about 1/2 inch higher than the horixontal portion of the tub, adjacent to his seam. Note that the bracket isn't quite perpendicular to the fore/aft axis of the car but is welded to the tub at a slight angle. You can see what sort of clearance you should have with the tire at full lock.

JR

[frankc]

Javadog,

Thanks for the time and effort to post the pics and make these measurements - you are a lifesaver! I have a couple of clarifying questions:

Just to make sure I am interpreting your forward/aft measurement correctly, does this look right?




And for the vertical placement, when you said the bottom of the bracket is about .5" above the bottom of the tub, were you referencing the bracket at its centerline again, or is this from the lip at the rear of the bracket? The reason I ask is that in the second picture the lip appears nearly flush with the bottom of the tub, but maybe it's just the angle.

thanks again,
Frank

[javadog]

You are correct on both questions. Sorry for the confusion, the height measurement needs a little more explanation. I was referencing the bracket on the centerline, so I was not considering the lip. Also, there is a radius at the corner of the tub and the bottom surface of the tub slopes down slightly, toward the center of the car. My measurement was taken at the point where the radius ends and the flat (if not entirely level) portion of the tub begins.

JR

[frankc]

I'm finally getting the lower front oil cooler bracket welded in place while the car is in the body shop for some other work. The photos from Javadog are great and should be sufficient, but does anyone have any additional photos of the factory lower bracket (preferably without the oil cooler installed) that I can show to the shop to ensure correct placement?

Thanks

[frankc]

I'm reviving this thread in the hope that Javadog is still subscribe because I'd like to get his (or anybody with the brass oil cooler installed) response to a couple of questions that came up when test fitting my brass cooler today (see photo).

1) I assume the two horn brackets used with the brass cooler are the same as the ones used with the trombone cooler? PET indicates the same two brackets are used for all 78-83 911s, regardless of the cooler type.

2) Does the angle of the cooler in the photo look correct? The cooler is angled back a bit to clear the horns (hence question 1), and I want to make sure there is going to be enough clearance for the tire, and that the top bracket will reach the bracket on the headlight bucket. I haven't had much luck finding images of the brass cooler installed that show the angle.

[Jdub]

Yes on #1 - some bending or rotation of clamps may be required.

I have bolted in a lower bracket and "L" on top of the headlight and so can shed some light. Your angle looks reasonably correct - it will all be at the mercy of the upper and lower hard mounts, plus the pliability of the Silentbloc isolating rubbers you will use.

If some bending is required so be it. I would work the lower bracket flange before I put any leverage on the oil cooler brass shelf itself.

[javadog]

I can't help you on the angle, at the moment. The car that I measured earlier in the thread now lives in Belgium. I have a similar cooler on my Carrera 3.0, but it is off the car at the moment and packaged up to be sent to get cleaned.

My advice on mounting these things is to attach the cooler to the hoses first, then install it in the lower bracket and push it towards the headlight bucket. When you are happy with the way it looks, bolt it in place. I made a new bracket for mine to attach it to the headlight bucket. A previous owner had mounted a Carrera 3.2 cooler and used a bolt through the headlight bucket to attach the bracket for that. I kept the hole and just made a new bracket.

Can't help you with the horns either, as I've removed the stock horns and will be using something lighter, mounted on the left side of the car.

JR

[frankc]

Thanks for the responses. I guess I'll find out if any adjustments are needed to the horn brackets once I get the fender and front suspension bolted on so I can check the clearance. I mainly wanted to know if I was starting with all the correct hardware.

Btw, I had the cooler cleaned and inspected by Pacific Oil Cooler - they were great to work with and the cooler looks great.

[LM3929]

I will check my 83 that I put the same cooler on last year but I think I had to move the horns to the frt of the bracket.

Lorne M.

[LM3929]

all my pictures of the oil cooler brackets shows the horns are in frt of the bracket.

Lorne M.

[frankc]

Lorne,

Thanks for the info on the horns. Did the tire rub the cooler if you left the horns in the normal location?

Since I don't see any other horn brackets listed in PET for the years when the brass cooler was installed, I am curious to see a factory setup for this cooler and the horns. According to Jdub, the configuration I show in my picture should be the OEM setup, but may require a little tweaking.