Did our dear Dr. Ferdinand copy?

[Paul Franssen]

Not too off-topic, I hope!

With all respect for this undoubtedly great engineer Dr. Ferdinand Porsche -after all he's the "founding father" of our cars- the enclosed document

http://www.tatra.demon.nl/cars-T97.htm

really provided a shocker when, immediately, I noticed the similarity between the Tatra chassis photo and the VW chassis. But then, read, and look at some of the other pictures!!!
I didn't know that...

Now, Dr. Porsche has done the grand tour of German automakers
(Benz, Auto Union, plenty others...) before starting his own post 1945 cottage industry production of the earliest Porsche cars, the rest being evolutionary history.

I guess no one can blame the Dr. for not having shut his eyes all these years, as much as I guess there is no such thing as a "standalone" industry!

[jluetjen]

Wow! That's an interesting article. The relationship in the designs seems a lot closer then just a few patents. I'm curious though based on the meetings between the two men, how many of Porsche's ideas turned up on the Tetra? I'm sure that it was a 2-way street. Considering that Porsche has always been a contract engineering firm, it's not surprising that there was some cross fertalization.

While I don't have a definitive Porsche history library, I checked in "Porsche, A Tradition of Greatness" and noticed a couple of things. (Note the following is a summary of what the book described.)

1) In December 1930 Porsche G.m.b.H was started and "Joseph Kales, a specialist in aircooled engines with experience at Tatra..." was one of the early members of the firm.

2) They had an ongoing "Project 12" which was described as follows: "It would have a rear engine to avoid a long driveshaft and allow plentiful interior and luggage space, it would be aircooled to avoid the need for a heavy water-cooling system and it would be made of light allow to prevent a severe rear-end weight bias. The car would also ahve a platform chassis with a central backbone to avoid the heavy conventional frame, and a swing-axle rear suspension, with torsion bars located transversely both front and rear. The engine, hi decided should be a horizontally opposed four which was compact and thus well suited to the small body size envisioned and would also hook up easily to Frohlichs proposed aluminum-cased transaxle."

3) This developed into 3 prototypes for Zundapp. These had radial 5-cylinder engines in them.

4) After that Porsche et al did a proposal for NSU in 1933 which was a similar car, but with a flat-4 engine. 3 Prototypes were again built, but the relationship was ended in 1935. (Note that the last prototype (Type 32) was delivered in 1945 and is now owned by VW.) Apparently at the end of the deal with NSU, Porsche owned the full rights to the design.

Given Porsche's history with the design, I wonder if there was far more Porsche on the Tetra then Tetra on the Porsche. This might explain why the ultimate settlement was so small.

Are there any historians out there with more or better information?

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Now thats a old and "simple" story. The greatest engeneerers in europe all had been once in the Stuttgart area and mostly where discussing about there things and shared idears. In the late 20´s the FSKS University in Stuttgart was something like the melting pot from great automotive engeneers.

And those people normaly had no problems discussing things and work out problems togehter or making there own different ways.

And in fact Ledwinka was a great engeneer but never had the chance to earn his fruits due the circumstances. But those circunmstances where not made by Porsche and after the war the Piech clan ( those are the "capitalists" say creative to make money but not creative to invent something a sidenote is that ferdinand Piech was the black sheep ) just tried to pull the history on there side to safe money ( or earn money ).


In fact most nowerdays technology is based on inventions made from german engeneers pressed out while WWII and noone ever asked how those got any financial benefits from there work. Germany lost the war and those inventions where turned over to the allied forces ( and many inventors where turned over as well and pressed out like citrus fruits to keep on there work ).

So this thing is history we can´t change but we can look back and try to see it in a clear perspective even if we are Porsche "lovers" we don´t need to see everything trough the Porsche sunglas ( Design F.A. Porsche made by Carrera ).

But this seems to be something most people don´t understand as they seem to pull strenght from owning "the best" and any question about it is like those people lose something.

Thats like two teams meet in a staduim and every team trys to win the came to make points but then the "losing" team is not a loser they worked hard and scored less but they tried it.

Here is a thread about that from the german Porsche 911 circle.

There is also a letter from a whitness from that time but I have to find that in the archives.

Sorry it´s not translatet but I hope obin can do that

Hallo

Die Geschichte ist kompliziert aber natürlich hat der Volkswagen Ledwinka Patente verwendet und natürlich war der Ledwinka ein genau so genialer Konstrukteur wie der Porsche.
Die beiden haben sich auch noch gut gekannt und bei mehreren Projekten zusammengearbeitet.
Das der Ledwinka von A.Hitler kaltgestellt wurde war F. Porsche
wahrscheinlich nicht bekannt. Hitler hat Ihm gegenüber gesagt das er die Ledwinka Patente verwenden kann und er ( A.H.) sich um das finanzielle kümmert.
Und Ledwinka wurde ja nicht von Porsche sondern von Hitler und dem Reichsverband RDA ( der damals pro Opel & Ford weil von denen finanziert war ) betrogen. Danach hat ein gewisser Herr Nordhoff die Leitung von Volkswagen übernommen der vorher im Krieg der Stadthalter der Ford Deutschland AG war ( Und bis 1944 die Firmengewinne über die Schweiz nach Amerika transferierte )

Also bitte wiederholen wir diesen Betrug nicht auch nur diesmal wieder besseren Wissens. F.Porsche sen. ist zu früh verstorben um das zu regeln.
Und nach dem Krieg war die Luise Piech der Chef im Hause Porsche. Der F.Porsche hatte real keine Mitspracherechte wenn es ums Geld ging. Immerhin hat der Ledwinka 3 000 000 DM Vergütung bekommen. Das war damals pro Käfer
umgerechnet entsprechend 20% von dem Porsche Vergütungsanteil.
( 5,-/Auto ). Porsche war ja nicht angeklagt sondern die Volkswagen AG.

Tatsächlich hat Ledwinka z.B.: 1933 den Tatra 87 gebaut. Mit einem Lufgekühlten V8 mit OHC. Weiterhin war ein einfacher T 97 gebaut worden, mit einem 1,8L OHC 4 Zylinder Boxer. Das Auto war fahrbereit als Porsche noch drei Käfer Prototypen in seiner Garage zusammenbaute.

Die Produktion wurde auf "Wunsch" Hitlers eingestellt und nur noch der 87 gebaut. Für die Mittelklasse sollte der Adler Autobahn anstatt des T 97 angeboten werden und der Volkswagen ausser Konkurenz bleiben.


Noch was. Die Drehstabfederung ist ein Porsche Patent. Der
Zentralrohrplattformrahmen ein Ledwinka Patent ( und schon um 1910 angewandt ).

Nur der Käfer hat einen Zentralplattformrahmen aber kein einziger Porsche.

Das liegt daran das es für Porsche persönlich keine gute Konstruktion war aber der Käfer ja billigst produziert werden musste. Soweit ich weiss hat der Ledwinka auch eine Pendelachse hinten verwendet was damals eine Porsche
Entwicklung für Daimler war ( In dessen diensten er ja stand und unter anderem die SSK entwickelte ). Aber die Urform der Pendelachse stamt von Ledwinka. Nur hat der Porsche diese erheblich verbessert und damit Produktionstechnisch überhaupt erst möglich gemacht.

Ich habe es nicht nötig die Geschichte zu verbiegen um mich besser zu fühlen. Das der Ledwinka um seine Früchte betrogen wurde ist schon tragisch aber Geschichte. Deswegen heute seine Leistungen nicht anzuerkennen oder ohne Auseinandersetzung mit der Materie abzuurteilen halte ich für Unehrenhaft.
Bin ich hier bei blasierten Vollidioten die sich keine eigene Meinung bilden können und deswegen Porsche fahren müssen ? Und die gleichen Leute haben auch Probleme von einem BMW eingeholt zu werden.

Schon mal überhaupt geschnallt was der Porsche für ein Auto baute und welche Vorstellungen er davon hatte ?

( Sorry schlechte Leberwerte )

Grüsse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ingo Weidenbach"
To:
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 10:14 PM
Subject: [Porsche911] Re: Antwort: Re: 911 aus 356? / Porsche Geschichte


> > Es gibt übrigens ganz üble Gerüchte, die besagen, dass die geniale
> Bauweise
> > von Käfer und Porsche gar nicht auf Ferdinand's Mist gewachsen ist. Böse
> > Zungen behaupten, dass diese Konstruktionen aus der Tschechoslowakei von
> > Tatra abgekupfert wurden. Tatra hatte schon viel früher
Drehstabfederungen
> > und luftgekühlte Boxer im Heck. Zufall? Die Nazis, die ja schon 1933 an
> der
> > Macht waren, sollen da auch Ihre Finger im Spiel gehabt haben.
> >
> > Aber ich als absoluter Porsche-Fan glaube das alles nicht!
>
> Hallo Christian,
>
> so übel sind die Gerüchte nicht.
> Da ich selber einen Tatra restauriere, besuchte ich natürlich auch das
> Museum in Koprivnice (früher Nesselsdorf). Dort stand ein "Käfer" prototyp
> Bj. 1932 (Tatra mit Boxerrmotor, luftgekühlt). Entwickelt ca.1927. Ging
> jedoch nie in Serie.
> In einschlägigen Büchern über Porsche bzw. über Tatra kann man nachlesen,
> das Hr.Porsche und Hr. Ledwinka sich bereits lange Zeit kannten und auch
> zusammen gearbeitet (konstruiert) haben.
> Während der Nazi-Zeit wurden beide auch nach Österreich verschlagen.
> Wer nun die Idee mit dem "Käfer" hatte ist strittig. Doch nach Aufbau und
> Form hatte der "Käfer" scheinbar zuerst ein Tatra Logo auf dem
> Kofferraumdeckel.(man beachte das Bj)
> Ledwinka wird auch heute noch als Colani der 30er bezeichnet. Seine
> Stromlinienfahrzeuge mit luftgekühlten Boxermotor im Heck ( 8-Zylinder)
> waren die reinsten "Geschosse" für die damalige Zeit.
> Bei der Betrachtung eines Tatra T 70 sind die Kotflügel mit Scheinwerfer
> doch recht bekannt.
>
> Glücklicherweise hat keiner den dritten Scheinwerfer in der Mitte
> übernommen! :-)).
>
> Gruß
> Ingo
> HS-WT 911
>

[Doug Zielke]

V-e-r-y interesting Herr Doktor Kunz.
Thanks for that!

[kstar]

Here are the German passages from Roland's post that I have translated via the Alta-Vista web site ( http://babelfish.altavista.com/ ):

"Hello History is complicated has the Volkswagen Ledwinka of patents used and naturally was however naturally the Ledwinka just as ingenious technical designer as the Porsche. The two knew each other also still well and with several projects co-operated. That was not cold-placed the Ledwinka by A.Hitler was F. Porsche probably well-known. Hitler has it opposite said which it the Ledwinka of patents use can and he (A.H.) about the financial worries. And Ledwinka became not of Porsche but of Hitler and the realm federation RDA (at that time per OPELS & Ford because by those was financed) betrogen. Afterwards a certain Mr. Nordhoff does not have the line of Volkswagens transferred beforehand in the war of the city owners of the Fords Germany AG was (and until 1944 transferred the firm gains over Switzerland to America) thus please to repeat we this fraud also only this time again better knowledge. F.Por sen. is to be regulated too early deceased around. And after the war the Luise Piech was a boss in the house Porsche. F.Por had really no say if it around the cash went. Nevertheless the Ledwinka got 3,000,000 DM remuneration. That was per beetle converted according to 20% of the Porsche remuneration proportion (5, /Auto). Porsche was not accused at that time but the Volkswagens AG. Actually Ledwinka has e.g.: 1933 the Tatra 87 built. With a Lufgekuehlten V8 with OHC. further a simple T 97 had been built, with a 1,8L OHC of 4 cylinders boxer. The auto was drivingready as Porsche still three beetles prototypes in its garage assembled. Production was stopped to " desire " of Hitler and built only the 87. For the middle class the eagle motorway should be offered to 97 instead of the T and be remained the Volkswagens except Konkurenz. Still which. The drehstabfederung is a Porsche patent. The platform frameworkframework platform framework a Ledwinka patent (and already applied around 1910). Only the beetle has a central platform framework however not one Porsche. That is because of it it for Porsche personally no good construction was however the beetle approves of to be produced had. As far as I white has the Ledwinka also a pendelachse in the back used which at that time Porsche a development for Daimler was (standing in its services it and among other things the SSK developed). however the prototype of the pendelachse stamt from Ledwinka. Only the Porsche improved these substantially and made thus technical only possible at all. I did not feel it better necessarily history to bend around me. That the Ledwinka around its fruits became is already tragically however history betrogen. Therefore today its performances to recognize or without argument with the subject sentence do not hold I for dishonorable. Amn't I with blasierten complete idiots an own opinion to form here to be able themselves and therefore Porsche to drive have? And the same people have also problems of a BMW to be caught up. Already times at all fastened which the Porsche for an auto built and it had which conceptions of it? (Sorry bad liver values) of greetings

---- original Message ---- From: " Ingo pasture brook " to: Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 10:14 PM Subject: [ Porsche911 ] RH: Response: RH: 911 from 356? / Porsche history > > there are by the way quite bad rumors, which mean that the ingenious > building method did not grow at all > > from beetle and Porsche on Ferdinand's muck. Maintain badly > > tongues that these constructions from Czechoslovakia were abgekupfert by > > Tatra. Tatra had already much in former times drehstabfederungen > > and air-cooled boxer in the tail. Coincidence? The Nazis, which was already on 1933 > > > power, is not to have had also your fingers in the play there > > > > however I as an absolute Porsche fan believes that everything! > > hello Christian, > > the rumors are so bad > I a Tatra do not restore, visited I naturally also > the museum in Koprivnice there (in former times Nesselsdorf). There a " beetle " was to prototype > Bj. 1932 (Tatra with Boxerrmotor, air-cooled). Developed ca.1927. > into series > in relevant books concerning Porsche or concerning Tatra can one went reread, > to Mr. Porsche and Mr. Ledwinka already is however never enough oneself time knew and > together operated (designed) has > during the Nazi period also became both also to Austria to strike > who now the idea with the " beetle " had is contentious. But after structure and > form had the " beetle " apparently first a Tatra Logo on > the Kofferraumdeckel.(man considers the Bj) > Ledwinka also today still as Colani of the 30's is defined. Its > streamline vehicles with air-cooled double-piston engine in the tail (8-Zylinder) > were the purest " projectiles " for the time at that time > with the view of a Tatra T 70 are the fenders with headlight > nevertheless quite admit > > fortunately no the third headlight in the center > transferred! > > greeting > Ingo > HS-WT 911 > "

[bell]

wow, that's very interesting.
great post

bell
85'911 targa

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

I´m not a doctor and the translation is not to good.

Hello

History is complicated as Volkswagen used Ledwinka patents. Sure Ledwinka was just as an ingenious technical designer as Porsche. The two knew each other well and co-operated with several projects.
That Ledwinka was riped by A.Hitler was F. Porsche probably unknown. Hitler has said to him he will make it clear with Ledwinka so he can use that patents.
And Ledwinka became not riped off by Porsche but from Hitler and the realm federation RDA (at that time per OPELS & Ford because by those was financed) betrayed.

After WWII a certain Mr. Nordhoff becomed the main head of Volkswagens who was the responsible man for Ford in the Truck devision (and until 1944 transferred the firm gains over Switzerland to America )

We please to not repeat this fraud also only this time against better knowledge. F.Porsche sen. passed to soon away to have that regulatet or cleared up somehow. And after the war the Luise Piech was a boss in the house Porsche. F.Porsche junior had really no say if it came to cash. Nevertheless the Ledwinka got 3,000,000 DM remuneration. That was per beetle converted according to 20% of the Porsche remuneration proportion (5, DM per Car ). Porsche was not accused at that time but the Volkswagens AG. Actually Ledwinka has e.g.: 1933 the Tatra 87 built. With a aircooled V8 with OHC ( BTW the Tiúcker also copied the Tatra including centerlight and noone offered money to ledwinka ). Further a simpler T 97 had been built, with a 1,8L OHC of 4 cylinders boxer. The car was driving and ready as Porsche still built three beetles prototypes in its garage.
Production was stopped to " desire " of Hitler and Tatra only allowed to built the 87. For the middle class the Adler Autobahn should be offered to 97 instead of the Tatra and be remained the Volkswagens except opponent on the marked. The drehstabfederung is a Porsche patent. ( Ledwinka used a system the Corvette copyied many years later ) The Centralplatform framework is a Ledwinka patent (and already applied around 1910). Only the beetle has a central platform framework however not one Porsche. That is because of it was for Porsche personally no good construction however the beetle approves of to be produced at a low price and the centralplatform was the best way to massproduce a solid car ( And also a good way to make military vessels ).
As far as I know has the Ledwinka also a pendelachse in the rear which at that time Porsche improved for Daimler (standing in its services it and among other things the SSK developed).
However the prototype of the pendelachse originatet from Ledwinka. Only the Porsche improved these substantially and made thus technical only possible at all.

I did not feel better if history is bend.
That the Ledwinka couldn´t earn his fruits is already tragically however history.
Therefore today his performances to recognize or without argument with the subject sentence do not hold I for dishonorable.
I´m n't a blasierten complete idiot without an own opinion to form and do not need to drive Porsche to feel better or richer.
And the same people have also problems if a BMW will pass them on the street.

Did someone every made his mind up what Porsche cars stand for and what the originator really did built ?

(Sorry bad liver values)

greetings

[Paul Franssen]

Well, I wish to thank Mr. Roland (Kunz) for his views, of course I only threw an idea into the arena, without much prior knowledge, much less the ability to weigh and appreciate the complexities of history... Roland has constantly amazed me with his profound technical knowledge, well .. no more need be said! I love to read the original German, the "babelfish" translation...gawd (very funny to read this!). Roland's is a bit better (please don't be offended, Roland!). As to the reference to the Tucker, yes, I'd also noticed that car was designed with, I believe, a flat six aluminum engine! ...another sad story, too... to show that there appears to have been such a thing, especially in those days, as "state capitalism" (after all, VW was a very "state" thing during the war!) and Tucker was basically destroyed by the trials and other "state" (good old U.S., too!) intervention (undoubtedly inspired by the "big" U.S. automakers, there again ... I'm not an expert!)
And, I guess you all know Dr. Ferdinand spent maybe 1-2 years in a French prison (after '45) and (after some French factions -said to be communist or anarchist, I don't know, had assassinated Mr. I believe Louis Renault -in prison- for alleged and undoubtedly proven industrial collaboration with the German NS etc. etc.), Dr. Porsche (who greatly sufferen by bad treatment, I understand) actually completed the design of the French "Dauphine", which became a very popular well-sold French car of my childhood, rear-mounted air-cooled aluminum engine...so the circle goes round and round. Ach, wass soll es! No need at all to be Porsche snobs, Sir, still we love 'em and respect to all those engineers (I'm not one, and I respect those wrenches who can repair anything and undo tight rusted bolts, I hear nowadays it's difficult to find motivated young technicians in my country...).

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Roland's is a bit better (please don't be offended, Roland!).

No Problem I jused used the babelfish and made a fast correction ( Well I even don´t understand what the translation meant finally ) . There isn´t any usefull translationprogram from german to english while english to german seems to work much better ( Hopefully ) .

Last year I was thinking about buying a translator but a proffesional version costs to much and does also have problems.

(b)to the reference to the Tucker, yes, I'd also noticed that car was designed with, I believe, a flat six aluminum engine! ...another sad story, too... to show that there appears to have been such a thing, especially in those days, as "state capitalism" (after all, VW was a very "state" thing during the war!) and Tucker was basically destroyed by the trials and other "state" (good old U.S., too!) intervention (undoubtedly inspired by the "big" U.S. automakers, there again ... I'm not an expert!) [/b]

One problem is that the costumer don´t like to much progression, you have to go step by step. The Tucker was just a copy from the 1932on Tarta 87 using leftovers from WWII ( Built in the old Lookheed B 29 Hangar and using many aircrafttechnology the engine came from a helicopter ). He also used safty aspects inventet by Ledwinka, Porsche and Barìny and it was maybe the most progressive steped car after WWII. But the costumer wantet only a nrw rocket style look and still the old parts under the shelf. And that was much cheaper to produce.

Delahaye also had a rearengine V8 in progress after WWII and stoped that. Even Daimler had a aircooled V8 and transfered that to be watercooled. Appiering first in the 250 Dart.
The only company being capable to handle full aluminium engines after WWII seemed to be Tatra, VW and Porsche. Yet Tatra and Porsche where the masterbrains in engine and transmission engeneering before the war and Ledwinka also had worked under Hitler on several advanced projects but he had been imprisoned by the other side. West germany then used pressure to bring him out from the eastzone and he lived his last years in Frankfurt contributing into several companys. Sevveral years ago I was reading somwhere that the Porschefamily where deply involved bringing him over the curtain he was offered his Proffesion at the University Stuttgart again but he didn´t feel like he could do any work on regulary basis.
Ledwinkas last big after war job where the new Tatra Trucks who had been 20 years ahead from there time. Untill today those trucks are up to date and dominate the AWD Truck trail events.

Russia needed those trucks to pull ther heavy long range missles. So they returend him after they just "used" him up.

And, I guess you all know Dr. Ferdinand spent maybe 1-2 years in a French prison (after '45) and (after some French factions -said to be communist or anarchist, I don't know, had assassinated Mr. I believe Louis Renault -in prison- for alleged and undoubtedly proven industrial collaboration with the German NS etc. etc.), Dr. Porsche (who greatly sufferen by bad treatment, I understand) actually completed the design of the French "Dauphine", which became a very popular well-sold French car of my childhood, rear-mounted air-cooled aluminum engine

First he was POW and then the searced the archives to find something to keep him from the street. The Porblem with Porsche was he was political unonirientatet ( desinteresstet ) but on the other side a good hearded fellow who helped everyone. So he managed that Hitler put him in charge for the foreign constructions and production companys he he always tried to do the best for both side he managed that the french automotive industrie and the engeneers came complete over the war years so they could start fresh after the war. German industrie was nearly in ashes or deportet to russia. Well Renault and Peugot is something I have to reread to go sure. AFIR he only locked over the plans from the Renault to make some sugestions and to check if the production would be practicable. I think it would be to much to say that he constructet the Dauphine the french people on this board might get hurt in there feelings if a Boche would heplped founding one from there most beloved cars ( or legends ).

generally in the 30´s and 40´s the rearengine was the most practical way to make a good designed economyc car. Porsche allready built one version from the Mercedes ( 170 H ) to see that it was the way to go and also got a bleeding nose with some problem and with the shareholders. Tatra had seen that and deceided not to be as foolish as Porsche to built a "peoples car" he just went the oppesite way and the Tatra 77/87 was just a milestone in car technology like maybe only the Citroen 19 or the Mini. Seen from nowerdays those things look somehow funny and odd but compared to the cars in there time they had been outstanding amd progressive in all ways.

Porsche Junior bought his father free from prision the main money came from the cisitallia racecar but also from other sources. As the Money was frozen in and the Reichsmark had a enormus infalation he also used foreign money. A share came from the US from old Porsche engeneers & workers who had emigratet in the 30´s becourse they had the "wrong" religion. Porsche managed to bring them into "safe" places all over the years.

...so the circle goes round and round. Ach, wass soll es! No need at all to be Porsche snobs, Sir, still we love 'em and respect to all those engineers (I'm not one, and I respect those wrenches who can repair anything and undo tight rusted bolts, I hear nowadays it's difficult to find motivated young technicians in my country...).

Yes geting dirty fingers and not a perspective to earn millions isn´t something the youth attracts. Most from them would do anything as long it makes enough money to life ot there hobbys.
I´m a guy who works out his hobby and loves working just for the fun of it. No the car buisnees isn´t a way to become rich if you have a high selfrespect and quality is a main goal at work.
Today a car mechanic is a part from a profit centre and the workshop runners like to use them like roboters. A personality in my way is a big problem today. My fear is that the big industrie will run down and destroy workmanship so they have complete control over the marked.

Grüsse

[cdn914]

Does anyone have an idea what a 1948 Porsche/Tatra
may be worth?

[A Quiet Boom]

Originally posted by Roland Kunz


Yes geting dirty fingers and not a perspective to earn millions isn´t something the youth attracts. Most from them would do anything as long it makes enough money to life ot there hobbys.
I´m a guy who works out his hobby and loves working just for the fun of it. No the car buisnees isn´t a way to become rich if you have a high selfrespect and quality is a main goal at work.
Today a car mechanic is a part from a profit centre and the workshop runners like to use them like roboters. A personality in my way is a big problem today. My fear is that the big industrie will run down and destroy workmanship so they have complete control over the marked.

Grüsse

Very true, today's younger generation seems to care little about workmanship and craftsmenship. My younger brother is a Mechanical Engineer for Ford and he often complains about how some of the guys he works with don't even know how to change their own oil yet they are "allowed" to design cars. In fact I spent Labor Day with my wife and daughter visiting him at his home outside Detroit, he invited one of his high school friends who went on to become a designer at Ford over for dinner. This guy (whom I also know) arrives in his new Focus SVT with an aftermarket part in his hand and asks my brother if he'll install it for him. I was flabbergasted, the part was only a replacement "wishbone" or torque arm for the engine with poly bushings instead of rubber, he proceeds to show my brother the installation instruction which my brother didn't even bother looking at, 10 minutes later the car is back on the ground and the job is done. The whole time I looked on in shear amazement as my brother who learned much of his car hobby from me installed a simple part for a guy who is PAID to be a car designer (OK he doesn't design mechanical parts but still?) It became overwhelmingly obvious to me that this guy only took the job because of the pay and that revelation really bothers me. These types of incidents have inspired me to go back to school sometime next year to pursue the Mechanical Engineering degree I passed up in favor of becoming a Chef (A profession I gave up 3 years ago to take a technical job working for my brother-in-law). My father, a retired NASA engineer currently working in the private sector has on more than one occasion told me I'm the best engineer he's ever seen and that all I need is the degree to really make a difference. Perhaps this is why I find myself so fascinated by Porsche automobiles, they are in fact the epitomy of engineering greatness IMO. As for the "roots" of Porsche I'll make a simple comparison, American V8 powered cars of years gone by, how unique are those cars when compared against each other? I have to believe their was some "copying" going on on this side of the pond as well, so to me it's not surprising that many of the pre and post WWII european vehicles were of similar design especially when I read about how many of these early engineers/pioneers collaborated and openly discussed various ideas. This discussion only make Porsche automobiles more European, not however "less" Porsche.

[cegerer]

"today's younger generation seems to care little about workmanship and craftsmenship. My younger brother is a Mechanical Engineer for Ford and he often complains about how some of the guys he works with don't even know how to change their own oil yet they are "allowed" to design cars."

Unfortunately, this is the rule and not the exception today. Many (most?) engineers lack common sense and hands-on experience. I'm a licensed structural engineer. I showed up at a job-site yesterday to investigate a partial building collapse and this guy greets me with, 'you look more like a contractor than an engineer'. To which I replied, 'sorry, I left my Dilbert costume at home. I'm here to sort thru this pile of debris and figure out what happened, that's tough to do in a white shirt and tie!.' -- Curt

[jluetjen]

A number of years ago when I was fresh out of school and starting to get involved in racing, I was crewing for a friend who had a FF2000 (AKA: FC). On one weekend a friend of his joined us who was an engineer at GM. I was amazed by his utter lack of knowledge of vehicle dynamics and basic mechanics. By the end of the weekend I came to the conclusion that he was a very intelligent, degreed individual who apparently knew how to fill out the right forms and say the right things at corporate meetings. He just knew next to nothing about automobiles.

That's unfortunately when I came to the conclusion that the auto industry had matured just like all the others. The magic was gone...

Oh - the value of a Tetra/Porsche. I'm sure it's one of those things like the value of Bill Gate's house. There are very few of them and they are VERY special. You'll most likely never be able to find anyone to work on it nor the replacement parts either. The potential market of buyers (based on the economic definition of value) is most likely limited to 1 or two people or organizations. They most likely are quite willing and able to pay a lot for a Tetra/Porsche. It would definitely need to be sold through one of the upscale auction houses in order to ensure that both of the potential buyers appear at the time of sale. So the value; $100K up to $1M+

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

What is a Tatra/Porsche ?

Grüsse

[Roland Kunz]

Ups sorry

[TimT]

I would hardly say copy!!

Like otherS have said Dr Porsche did consulting work with many companies. Im thinking way back then then they didnt have the confidentialty agreements that lots of us have to sign now.

The time before the war was the genesis of the automobile.. so many companies and engineers were working to get a car on the road

I have seen the history of the tatra before......it is just engineers or visionaries getting glimpses of each others work..


we all have benefited

[jluetjen]

Roland;
I'm Sorry. I used Tatra/Porsche as a shorthand for any Tetra that Dr. P may have been involved with based on the earlier discussion on this thread.

I wasn't trying to invent a new car!

- sorry -

- John

[Randy W]

Fascinating history, Roland. Thank you. I think copying is as common in automotive engineering and design as it is in other fields. It takes inspiration to come up with a new idea, and that just doesn't happen often enough to suit management. I was at an autocross the other day and a new MR2 on course was identified as a Boxster - looked pretty similar to me too...

I think, Picasso said it best - "I don't copy, I steal."