good night, and when you wake up you'll feel better

[dhagood]

so i put my 911 to bed for the winter. not because of poor weather, or salt and gravel on the roads, but because i can't keep oil in the engine. i've been keeping close track of oil loss, and it looks like i'm getting about 300 miles to the quart.

if it's burning oil, i can't see it. maybe it has something to do with that big oil stain in the garage.

i'm going to take the engine out, clean it up, figure out where all the leaks are, and see if i can plug some/most/all of them. i also need to replace the rubber fuel and brake lines. i'd like to replace all the suspension bushings as well. my pelican project list is currently 6532.09 dollars worth of fun, but i've been unemployed for 9 months. i can handle the 9 cents pretty well, the rest of it will take some creative thinking.

this ought to be an interesting winter

[Rot 911]

If you aren't seeing smoke then I suspect your exhaust valve guides are shot. Oil gets sucked through them and into the exhaust without burning. Leak down test might be in order.

[dhagood]

so if i have oil suckage past the valve guides, and it doesn't burn, i should be able to feel an oily residue in the tail pipe, correct? if so, is it fairly subtle? i'm losing a lot of oil somewhere.

also, i don't see how the leakdown test will help if the valve guides are shot. as i understand it, the test looks at how well the valves seal against the valve seats and the rings seal against the cylinder walls. if this is true, i can have good compression and leakdown test results with completely worn out valve guides.

the engine is a 84 3.2L with 133K miles. the engine has never been opened to my knowledge. i really don't want to have to do a top end on the engine, but i never really want to pay my mortgage either

[Scott R]

Sounds like this is going to get expensive quick. Most of the tools you may need the local Pelicans have. Sometimes we even all get together to drop an engine or two. It might help you a bit on the costs anyway.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by dhagood

maybe it has something to do with that big oil stain in the garage.

Not sure if you are serious here.

[porschenut]

Worn valve guides are a certainty on any 911 with 133k miles....but that doesn't necessarily mean they're worn to the point of needing a valve job. If they've made it to 133k, then it's normal wear. My '86 is at the same point and it doesn't burn much oil at all.

I'd stick to your original plan...find and repair the leaks, then re-evaluate your oil usage.

[LOVEHZ]

So what's not much oil at all? I get about 600-800 miles per litre of oil depending on short or long distance driving. I have 65K miles on the odometer. I also don't see any smoke. Is that too much?

[dhagood]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Not sure if you are serious here.

yes, i'm serious. it's not an oil slick (ie, some depth to it), it's a stain (ie, very thin, doesn't really grow, but it's definitely oil on concrete).

what that says to me is that i don't really have a passive leak from the sump bolt, or the oil return tubes, or things of that nature. what i have is an active leak when the engine is running and the oil pressure is up. a couple of drops or so drips down, and then i back out of the garage. when i park the car and shut the engine off. there are small oil spots in three separate locations under the engine.

i'm currently running mobil 0w-40, and that stuff is pretty thin. i don't really understand if synthetic oil is absorbed differently in concrete than regular dino oil. i expect to change to valvoline zr-1 15w-40 for the zddp content during this maintenance cycle.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by dhagood

what that says to me is that i don't really have a passive leak from the sump bolt, or the oil return tubes, or things of that nature.

Agreed. Thanks. Just needed a little clarification.

Viscosity may (??) make a difference with a stain on cement but if you have a consistent leak, you could tell pretty easily.

If you have time to pull the engine, that is cool, but it sounds like all the stuff you would change/address could be tended to with the engine inside the car.

I bet the valve guides are just tired. Clean it up and drive till things get better job wise. Ironic you (we - I'm in the same boat) have time but should not sensibly drop big/medium money right now. Stretch it and drop the $532.09 of the $6,532.09 on tightening a few things up. :-)

[dhagood]

what is the current thinking on the hot setup to drop the engine/transmission unit with the car up on jackstands?

i've been hitting on the forum search feature, and am impressed by my complete lack of success in finding what i'm looking for. clearly my search tool-fu is weak, because i can't believe this hasn't been discussed ad nauseam.

based on what i've been able to find, it seems that an atv jack is commonly used. are there any specific features i should be looking for? is there some brand or model that is considered optimal?

can anyone point me in the right direction?

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by dhagood

what is the current thinking on the hot setup to drop the engine/transmission unit with the car up on jackstands?

i've been hitting on the forum search feature, and am impressed by my complete lack of success in finding what i'm looking for. clearly my search tool-fu is weak, because i can't believe this hasn't been discussed ad nauseam.

based on what i've been able to find, it seems that an atv jack is commonly used. are there any specific features i should be looking for? is there some brand or model that is considered optimal?

can anyone point me in the right direction?

The basic Harbor Freight ATV jack works great. I also like their aluminum "racing" jack, it's plenty strong. The racing jack is normally around $80, the ATV jack around $110. Get on their mailing list and you can find coupons.

Motorcycle Jack / ATV Lift - 1500 Lb. Capacity

Aluminum Floor Jack - 1.5 Ton Aluminum Racing Jack

I've seen the equivalent at Sears and Northern Tool.

[nesslar]

Oil....drives most everyone crazy. I have been driving my '86 a lot lately (gotta still be within limits of insurance and such of course) but have found that ZERO leakage and less 'burning' of oil is now the norm. Seems daily pleasure drives down to the water, once or twice to work, etc., does wonders. Drive it, don't let it sit, I say; the cars don't like it.........and yes, go DINO oil. I'm running Valvoline with some extra additive to boost the good stuff (about a pint per gallon). car is running great.............

[nesslar]

Originally Posted by LOVEHZ

So what's not much oil at all? I get about 600-800 miles per litre of oil depending on short or long distance driving. I have 65K miles on the odometer. I also don't see any smoke. Is that too much?

That's very similar to me; less than 70K on the odo...NO smoke at all lately with more seat time. I do like to let it idle for a few seconds before shutting it down, but honestly do NOT remember the last time I saw ANY smoke outa mine......love to check it on downshift and decel getting off the highway, never yet have seen anything except a rise in RPM.....

[Rot 911]

A quart every 300 miles isn't from a few drops of oil hitting the floor and spreading out. Have you looked into a leakdown and compression test?

[dhagood]

Originally Posted by Rot 911

A quart every 300 miles isn't from a few drops of oil hitting the floor and spreading out. Have you looked into a leakdown and compression test?

not yet, no. the engine will come out in a month or so to do a bunch of maintenance (fuel lines and such). i will be replacing o-rings and rubber hoses where ever they may be found, such as the triangle of death as well as the seals to the on-engine oil cooler.

if i don't find evidence of a major-league oil leak, i will look at compression/leakdown testing.

edit: i should point out that i see no evidence of oil smoke out of the exhaust. i almost never get exhaust smoke on startup, and i don't see it upon full throttle acceleration, and i don't see it when letting off the gas, and i don't see when getting on the gas after an extended period of the engine slowing the car with the throttle closed.

[dhagood]

pazuzu, thanks for the links.

[lindy 911]

It's completely possible that when the engine is running and there is oil pressure, a quart of oil can be pushed out past a leak and drop on the road. When you get home, all you will see is what's left on the case after you shut it down, and that's what drips on the floor. You're oil loss is happening when you drive down the road.

In order to loose a quart in 300 miles from oil getting past worn guides would produce smoke. Additionally, the guides don't necessarily pass oil no matter how worn they are as the oil would need to get past the seal first then the guide.

I use a standard floor jack to drop the engine; no special lift required. It's a balancing act but I've done it by myself many times. If you have a floor jack already, it's one more thing you don't have to buy with your limited budget. The car needs to be jacked high enough for the top of the motor to clear the bottom of the rear bumper and placed on jack stands. Then the floor jack, with a piece of 2x12, is used to lower the engine to the ground and out from under the car.

[creaturecat]

Get a super bright light. I use a small hid light. Crawl around, over and under.
A leak this large should be somewhat obvious.
Look for the wet spot. : )

[DaddyGlenn]

Here is my first drop lessons learned post.

First Engine Drop, Lessons Learned... Long

It has a link to the actual first drop thread.

P.S. don't let these guys scare you. It could be something horrible and expensive but it could be something simple and cheap.

If you are not seeing the exxon valdez spill on your garage floor and you don't see smoke or feel oil in the tail pipe. It may be a leak that only occurs when the oil is under pressure (engine running at speed) and warm (thinner oil).

You won't know until you get it out. Pull the engine and post some pictures of what you find.

And good luck on your job search.

[Rot 911]

Originally Posted by lindy 911

In order to loose a quart in 300 miles from oil getting past worn guides would produce smoke. Additionally, the guides don't necessarily pass oil no matter how worn they are as the oil would need to get past the seal first then the guide.

This is not entirely correct. You won't know what you have, or where to start looking, without doing at least a compression and leakdown test. For example, my 3.2 with 133,000 miles was using a quart of oil every 300 miles but was not smoking even on decelleration. Turns out I had some seriously worn exhaust valve guides and all the oil was getting sucked out the exhaust without burning. The inside of my heat exchangers were just coked up with oil. I also had a burnt exhaust valve as a result of the lack of heat transfer on the valve guides. I decided to do a complete engine rebuild myself. However, turns out that with the exception of the valve guides and valves everything else was way within spec! Course I had already split the cases so I said what the hell and rebuilt the engine anyway. Maybe the engine is leaking oil, but maybe it is something else. An investigation is certainly in order before ruling anything out.