Need Your Input Regarding Thoughts and Future Plans for This BBS!
 

Okay, I often sollicit ideas from you guys because this forum is indeed a community (not a democracy, but a community). I am still the evil dictator around here. :) I prefer to think of myself as an enlightened despot, for those of you who remember your European history.

Well, now I'd like your opinion. I rarely disclose Pelican's business plans on this board, but my competitors never really seem to know what's going on here, so I figured this one wouldn't hurt.

Regarding our BMW site. We're going to be re-launching our BMW site and separating it from the Porsche side completely within a few months. This combined with the new book (101 Projects for Your BMW 3-Series) that I will be working on (don't worry, I'll have the 911 engine book done way before then) should give our site a boost using a similar formula that we've developed for the Porsche side.

The one big question is the BBS. Creating a community like this one is tough, and it requires a long time and a lot of patience. Also a lot of subtle luring to get people here. The more people here, the faster the community grows, etc.

Bottomline is, I'm thinking of purchasing one of the existing BMW fourm sites. I'll probably approach all of them at one time to see who is interested.

What do you think a BBS like this is worth? To most people, the BBSs are a financial drain, and don't generate any income. The pure business model is terrible. To the right person (like me), it can be an invaluable tool for learning and promotion. There is probably no potential buyers of BBSs out there, so it makes my job easier. But, the running of most BBSs is a hobby-thing, which makes my job harder. It's like pulling someone over on the road, and asking them to sell their Porsche, which they have 1000 hours and 1000s of dollars invested (but is only worth market value).

This wouldn't affect this BBS at all - I would have it run completely separately on a different box.

What do you think? What is a BBS worth? Is it better to start from scratch? If I purchased someone else's creation, do you think that a vast majority of people would leave (I wouldn't do any major changes for a long time). Do you think it would be a good investment, or a big drain and liability.

Everyone here has an opinion, I'm curious as to yours...

Thanks,

Wayne

Wayne:

This is an interesting question. I would answer it something like the purchase of a represntitive sales business. You are only buying a client list.

So, the value of the list is the combination of the contribution (in $$) of each member of the list, the number of people on the list, and how likely they are to stay with you (the buyer).

So from your point of view I would say your BBS purchase value would be:

Expected earnings per person x N number of People x
% Expected rentention

Though I wouldn't even venture a guess on what these numbers would be for you, I think you could probably plug in a revenue per user from this board, the number of users would be from any board you're looking at buying, and then you could play with the retention rate.

The last variable would then be : how hard would it be to build a similar clientele? Well, again, you can look at what you have right now. The Porsche BBS is running high, and the BMW board is flagging. Could you get more users by posting a big ad in the Roundel? Or by your 101 projects book, would you be able to bring people in? My suspicions would be it would be tough to hit the critical mass point without some seeding traffic . i.e. if you look at your site right now, there is just not a lot of traffic. The other side of the coin would be: if you eliminate the biggest "competitor" it creates room in the market for your site.

I realize I haven't really answered any of your question, but I hope I at least gave you some framework to quantitatively answer your question.

Good luck! I'm curious to see how this plays out!

Chuck

Right, I have to weigh the costs of advertising and the efforts of creating that critical mass versus the cost of purchasing a viable entity. We're talking about items that haven't been bought or sold before (as far as I know) so the valuations are real sketchy. If it costs X dollars to run X amounts of ads and get XXXX amount of people, should that be the cost? As you mentioned before, revenue per subscriber would be a good number to have - HA! As if I could measure that quantitatively.

A lot of business is just good guessing based on intuition and past experience. How much is a BBS worth? To most people, it's not a useful entity, but to the right person, it could be worth something.

Tough questions to grapple with, as there is no real precident for this...

-Wayne

Wayne,

Instead of purchasing a BBS outright, how about approaching one or more of them and asking if they would like a partner?

As you said, they rarely make money and most are done as a benefit to the owners of the cars. You could purchase part of the BBS (hopefully 51%) and work together with them, using the Porsche BBS as a model.

Just an idea...

Joe

From a user's point of view, the key components of a good BBS are the handful of cornerstone members who give the board its character. Pelican started out with just you, Wayne, but gradually attracted a handful of experts who were also very generous with their time (Warren, Roland, John Walker, etc.).

And even that is only part of the recipe. You need a good mix of personalities to make a BBS compelling enough to visit regularly. In addition to the expert voices, we have issue-specific experts, model-specific experts, guys who are simply funny, guys who are simply bright and interested, and guys like me, who simply spend a lot of time at their computers. :)

A lot of from-scratch BBS's never get that critical mass of the correct mix of experts, enthusiasts, novices and personalities. So I can see that the attraction of getting a BBS that has already 'taken root,' as it were. The danger is that you could be perceived as the big bad outsider who's barged in to declare hismelf, commercially and intellectually, the boss. You could buy the BBS, but lose the members who give it its vitality.

What's more, it doesn't take much to bring one of these things down. When I was first considering getting a 911, the Early S Registry was a pretty lively place. One guy brought it down pretty much single-handedly. It's come back, more recently -- but as a casual user at the time, I simply decided the conflict and the BS was too annoying to justify my time, and I moved on.

Once a BBS gets going, it can be pretty robust. This one qualifies as a giant, now. But there were times in the past two years, even, where if you had pulled the involvement of a handful of guys, I think it could easily have begun a terminal decline.

So, while I don't know a thing about the economic value of a BBS like this, my thinking would be that you should get in touch with not just the owners of the successful BMW BBS's, but also the key players on them. Make sure your role is as an enthusiast, a facilitator and an enabler, above all else. Anyone can buy a think tank, but it takes a smart guy to do so in a way that doesn't scare off the thinkers.

Alternately, if you could create some sort of regularly-scheduled online event -- I have no idea what this would be -- but something that would lure the cornerstone experts and enthusiasts away from the other boards for a limited, and pre-specified, time. You might be able to do this without having to buy anyone's actual BBS. Again, the key is to get the right guys in the room at the same time. Like the German Autofest, Hershey, the R Gruppe event or Dunkel's, you can get everyone out of the woodwork if you have something worth promoting, and then actually promoting it. If you had an online issue-specific tech session once a month, which just happened to bring BMW guys into the lounge of your BBS, you might be able to put the pieces together from that, so long as (again) the event was worthwhile and the right people were invited and included.

All right, I've used up a lot of bandwidth here avoiding my own work and making it clear that I don't have an answer to the one specific question you asked. Hope that helped, though.

One other model of how to draw people in. Tracquest is Todd Serota's track event group. He has a discussion area on his site that's actually run (I think) by Rennlist. His little corner of the BBS regularly draws flare-ups of use whenever he hosts one of his events. Guys want to talk about the event before it happens, and they they want to talk about it once it's taken place. Rennlist doesn't do much of anything to cross-promote, off of Todd's board, but it certainly could. If you hosted discussion areas off of the sites of various BMW track groups, you could also have your own broader-interest BBS featured at the top of each page of the group/event-specific BBS.

When they run out of stuff to read in the local discussion, guys would click over onto the bigger board.

Just looking at it from a difference perspective- Does the site in question already have/sponsor an existing supplier that you'll be replacing? If so, is the supplier well established with the board members and has a loyal following? For example, if someone else bought up the Pelican Parts board and replaced Pelican Parts with Joe Porsche Supplier, the new owner will probably have a large hurdle to overcome in order to rebuild customer trust.

If not, would it be possible to set up a partnership with the current board owner where he/she continues to operate the board but integrates Pelican into the parts side of things for a while until the board gets "comfortable" with Pelican, esp when your rep as a reputable Porsche parts supplier gets around? The downside to this is that unless you strike out a deal with the current owner in the beginning, you might not be able to acquire the board cheaply after the fact if things work out well.

Any idea of the traffic the BMW board gets? It may be interesting to find out what the # of unique visitors the site gets and if the board already has a parts supplier/storefront, the ratio of purchases to customers, purchases to returning customers, etc.


-Wade
'88 Slant Coupe

I don't have a specific board in mind. I'm looking at all of them as potential 'partners.' Jack is right - the board is a collective think tank.

As I have learned, the traffic is only one part of the equation. If I did this plan, I would have to have the full cooperation of the current owner(s) and key people on the board. To come in and change the sign overnight would be a bad thing. I figure it would take at least a year for a good transition, particularly if the people on the board have never heard of me or Pelican.

Most boards have multiple 'banner ad' type sponsors. Some are competitors, and some are manufacturers. I'd probably let the manufacturers stay on as board sponsors without having to pay a fee.

I'd basically like to re-create the Pelican BBS that we have here on the BMW side. I've been very subtle with changes around here, and would be similarly deposed on the BMW side...

-Wayne

Some good points already articulated here, but I will add my opinion...

Wayne, in your second reply in this thread you elude to the fact you are not able to quantitatively associate revenue back to the users of this board. I find that surprising, and would suggest that you are potentially missing a large opportunity as a result. I have some experience in the Customer Relationship Marketing "CRM" field, and I have often wondered what you actually know about your customers. For instance, I have been a member of this BBS since April of 2000, and yet when I purchase things from Pelican, or even interact with you on e-mail, you refer me to the board as if I have never heard of it. In my business this is analogous to offering one of your customers a product of yours that they already have! This is insulting and disconcerting for a lot of service industry customers.

So, my point is, you MUST know who is visiting your site, how valuable they are, and what you should do to ensure that they keep coming back. This can and should be done at the individual customer level. Some simple database work can provide huge insights into your customer base, their behaviors, propensity to purchase, and how/if you should maintain the existing business relationship with them. The same applies to new prospects who have never shopped at Pelican before, and would definitely apply when pondering the acquisition of a whole new pool of "subscribers".

CRM is a fairly complex strategy, but a little common sense goes a long way. Think of how on-line, or even telephone businesses cater to you when you approach them. There are always many surprising attributes of customers when you start to segment them and predict future behavior.

You have an amazing community here, and as someone above said, it is a complex combination of experts, personalities, enthusiasts and a great community leader that really make Pelican stand out where others fade.

My two cents....


JA

I think Jack nailed it in his first 3+ sentances.
At least he hit on my thoughts about it.
About all I can add is; buying a BBS is like buying someones baby.
It could be priceless to the parent.
It could have a parent pining to get out of the responsiblity of the day to day care, but still wants their baby to succeed.
It could get suddenly sick and die.

So Wayne, with your experience, you are going to be by far the best judge on "having your own" or adopting.

From a practical point of view, or from the point of view of TheComputerGuy (my business name), buying an existing BBS may mean it's setup in a different way with different software, maybe different operating system, and become twice the work. If you setup another one in parallel with this one it won't be much more work at all, then give it time (and a few incentives :) ) for people to migrate across. Admittedly I’m basing this on having worked for banks that have bought other banks and unsuccessfully tried to run both systems. I know a BBS is different but the concepts are the same.

Jandrews:

HA! That's funny! Most of the people on this board have usernames, which I cannot trace back to actual orders. In fact, the only link I might have is through email addresses. I just looked up your email address on the board, and then searched our database - you weren't in it.

So, even if you had ordered $100,000 worth of parts, I cannot link you to the BBS, because this BBS is mostly anonymous... There are like 5 J Andrews in the database. If you send me an email, how on earth can I know who you are? The only way is with super-tight integration with the BBS - the software that I did not write (nor do I want to write).

How am I possibly to know if you are on this board? You don't use your real name, and you don't use the same email address? Cross-referencing this type of data is very difficult.

As for sending me (or us) email, we get about 200-300 emails a day. We currently use Microsoft Exchange and Outlook to handle email. CRM never really took off (a lot of dot-coms have gone bankrupt on CRM) because indeed it is difficult and requires intense coordination. I am working on an email system that will integrate with our ordering system, but I can indeed only do so much (gotta finish this book first)...

I do appreciate your comments, but I think your assumption that integrating everything together would be a snap is very unrealistic. In fact, we have one of the tightest, integrated systems around (for a parts dealer). Heck, no one else even has a BBS!

:)

I realize the potential for this, but I have to weight it against other things that occupy my time (like expanding product offerings, expanding the catalog and website, etc.). There are so many projects around here. Not to mention the growing-pains problems (like how I have to buy a new phone system now because we've outgrown our old one. Do you know how much research you have to do to buy a phone system? Gazillions of hours. T1, PRI codes, DID lines? What the heck?)

Comments are certainly appreciated - just trying to give more of a view of the big picture...

-Wayne

Bill,

There is more than one BMW BBS out there that is running the same vBulletin software. Integration with our current setup would indeed be a very important element, and key in a decision.

I'm curious, what is a stand-alone BBS worth? $5K, $25K, $50K?

I'm sure if you asked someone 2 years ago during the dot-com boom, they would have said $1 million!

:)

-Wayne

Wayne -

As you investigate further I believe that you will find that most BBSs are run by "hobbyists" for "the fun of it". They are not in it as a business, it is just a pasttime that has gotten out of hand.

Speaking from experience (I ran a an extremely popular BBS for over three years), the economic reality that a BBS owner faces is cost, not worth. The cost of hosting and bandwidth escalates as the forum becomes more popular. To a point where you are almost afraid of success. Towards the end, I was facing $1,000 monthly bills to run the site. Sure, I was able to sell banner ads to help offset the cost, but this was difficult and almost allowed me to break even.

So, I think that you need to look at it from the perspective of the BBS owner. The realities are:

Minimal Income - High Costs + Hard Work = A Big Pain in the Ass

To make a long story short, I did sell my BBS. I received an offer from someone that wanted to market to my audience. I took the money and ran as fast as I could. However, I would have handed it over for nothing if the buyer had just offered to handle operations and expenses. BTW, it still is in operation today.

My recommendation to you would be to find the most active BMW BBSs, make an offer to take over operations and expenses and allow the current owner to stay on as "resident guru" (that's what he wanted in the first place anyway). Throw in a Pelican T-Shirt and an oil filter and I think you may close the deal.

Business valuation is very tricky. Opinions vary by amazing amounts. When my partner and I decided to sell our business one broker told us it was worth $750K. Another said it would sell for almost twice that! Not only did the second guy get the listing, but he was right about the price!

By most standards a BBS is going to be light on hard assets. Some multiple of cashflow is a likely valuation method. The challenge is coming up with the proper multiple for this type of business. You might call a business broker who does valuations and see if you can pinpoint the industry standard for how this sort of business is valued. Of course the next challenge is varifying the seller's cashflow claims. If there's no documentation then it doesn't exist.

Anyway you look at it, it's a business. It has to be making somebody some money (or have sellable assets) if it's going to be worth anything at all.

Not a clue on the value of a BBS. I would base it on a revenue stream.

But I have a question, after reading the latest GrassRoots Motorsports. Are BMW guys a DIY bunch ?

It seems DIY is what drives the mass of this BBS. Which in turn should generate sales for Pelican Parts.
So if the BMW guys don't work on their own cars. I don't think you could re-create what we have here.

If they do. Find the BBS with the most DIY posts.

I think Jack is right about keeping the experts - heck, give them special deals, keep them happy. If they keep posting, keep the goodies coming. They get annoying, "fire" them.

Experts are what you have to have. Smartasses like me show up to learn from the wise ones, and can't resist the occasional pro bono wisecrack.

Not that I have anything against Cher, mind you.
:p

Is it Bimmer.org?

That's probably the biggest one out there.

And even that isn't worth much, the model (as far as making money) has been disproven. Anything with less traffic than that site is not worth much.

Maybe $5K?

I wonder if there is as much value in a BMW BBS as with the Porsche BBS. As Jack has stated, you have achieved the right balance of users that keep the content lively as well as informative. I think another part of the equation is the cult-like status that Porsche owners feel apart of.

Is there the same cult-type following for the BMW's as there is for Porsche? There probably is for the 2002 series and M-series, but beyond that (ok, and maybe the z3), I'm not sure there is the same level of zelous hobbyist like exists on this board. Are there as many DIY's and hobbyists out there for BMW, and is that the group you are targeting? I guess my question is: If there isn't a comparable board to PP Porsche BBS out there today, is it because no one has assembled the right group of users, or is there not the draw to get them to spend some time every day going to the same BBS (which I think a lot of us do here)?

So far I haven't been flamed on this board, but that record may quickly come to an end with this post! By the way, I do have a BMW, but still under warranty, so I'm not planning on doing anything major in the near term (I have 58K left to go on the warranty).

Craig

Hmm, there are a bunch of DIY people on the BMW circuit. Also, there are millions more cars than Porsches, so even if the percentage is lower, then the actual numbers may be there.

Not to toot my own horn either, but this site in itself has created a whole new breed of customer. A lot of people were not able to do their own valve adjustment until this website (and 101 Projects) came along. These two 'publications' are probably responsible for *a lot* of people taking the plunge to work on their own car. At least that's what we hear from people who call in every day. "Love the site, wouldn't think of working on my car without it, blah, blah, blah..."

Maybe I just have a big head...

I'm not too interested in Roadfly.org (bimmer.org). Their interface is awful, which means that they just don't get it in my opinion...

-Wayne

Dear Wayne,

I believe that this BBS has value. I would probably never buy my dream without it. The invaluable resource of people and support is a great asset. I would never have the balls to buy an early 911, take it apart, and then REBUILD it without the father figure of experienced people at such easy access.

What this means is; you are providing me with resources, I in turn want you to continue to provide those resources so I support your business with purchases from your catalog.

In addition, I can't wait for the book.

-JB

I've surfed a few of the BWM boards, and found them all lacking. It seems as though there was lots of turnover, and the level of knowledge seemed limited to a few people, and the pool never seemed to grow. Here, there are a few true p-car geniuses, but as they have contributed, more and more people have become increasing proficient...the community of experts gets bigger.

There is a passion on the BWM boards, but it is different. While there may be many more BMWs on the road, I think the number of true enthusiasts that make a community like this is probably about equal. Maybe a dynamic site like this could build the passion of the BMW crowd...but maybe not.

Bottom line, I wouldn't pay very much at all unless you really think the community has anything going.

I'm going to chime in.
I'm a "noob" to this board - mostly because I came across it at the recommendation of one of the members here who is also a member of "my" board.

I'm a "super moderator" there, which basically means, I have no rights, but can do some things ;)

Currently, in the Porsche world, there are two well-known boards that *I* know of - this one and Rennlist. In the BMW world, there are about 8. All have their little niche focus.

One board attracts that non-owner, asthetic interested, pseudo-knowledgable, while the other attracts the well-traveled, expert, etc.

Bimmer.org...who knows who they attract;)

All your points are on the mark about what really makes a board worth coming back to:
People, advice, interest.

I'd like to think that our board (having BARELY seen this one) is akin to the most technically minded board you'll ever run across for BMW's. We have the likes of Jim Conforti stopping by for visits, BMW mechanics, Forced Induction experts, guys who've taken the pain to machine new pistons, etc.

For those interested - www.bimmerforums.com

"I'm not too interested in Roadfly.org (bimmer.org). Their interface is awful, which means that they just don't get it in my opinion... "

Yeah, the interface is awful. In fact, it is worse!! Hurry up and convince them to be accumulated by Wayne's Empire and give me a proper interface!!

You could probably get www.bmw2002faq.com for nothing - the dude appears to be constantly on the edge of his finances.

Trying to be constructive, you need to think carefully about how you will retain the BBSers of whatever you are interested in.. you wouldn't want to pay over $$$ and see them disaffected and disappearing.

Ahh, the spies are among us!

Really guys, this is exactly the kind of thoughts and insight that I was looking for!

Now, anyone want to finish this pain-in-the-butt book for me?

-Wayne

Hey, Umnitza's bimmerforums.com BBS is pretty good.

Having been a BMW owner and DIY'er for many years (and just a newbie Porsche owner), I've participated in the BMW forums for a long time. I would caution that the bimmer crowd is very different from the Porsche enthusiast group: very fragmented. Unlike Porsches, which basically was the same car for 20+ years, the BMW crowd is fragmented into the '02 group, the e21 group, the e30 group, e36 group, e46 group, etc..... and that's just the 3-series line! Each group is independent and there's not much crossover, mainly because there's very little (or no) crossover in parts or commonalities between models. Likewise, there is a lot of fragmentation in forum participation and support.

It would be very difficult to "capture" the bimmer group by purcasing or partnering with just one forum.

One other note: the format doesn't make the forum, it's the content provided by the supporters that makes the forum great... like this one!

Just my "other side of the fence" perspective.

Wayne,

I'm going to chime in here only because I want to echo the sentiments of some of the other folks with the intent to help solidify what they've said to you...

THe BBS is a great asset, but there are very few models (outside of on-line sales) that generate any tangible revenue. Despite modern accounting practices of quantifying "Intangible Customer Goodwill" on many corporate balance sheets, it's really tough...

I work for a CRM/Supply Chain/Financial optimization company so we deal with a lot of revenue issues... Most companies internet sales are 5-10% of their total revenue. Significant, but not great. Bottom line is I would determine offering price based on what you think your intended revenue is in year 1 and 2 (understanding that it could drop off afer six months), take a SMALL percentage of that, adjust it for how many people you think you will get from said purchased customer list, and offer what you think is fair...

I wouldn't say it would be worth spending more than 15-20K onyl because all the risk is yours, including the risk of the seller re-starting another board... All you're really buying is the contact list and the URL name.

I think it's a GREAT idea FWIW, but I also think you have the resources to start a good board from scratch too. Try some creative promotions. For example... FOr every new customer a board member brings in, give them 5% of that new customers order off their next order. (Up to a max $ value or something).

Without knowing your ratio of repeat customer income vs. one-time buys, this may or may not work...

Can you host some famous people on on-line chats?

My 2 cents...

Wayne;
Given your MIT background and the things that you've written, you're most likely familiar with "Gaming Theory". "GT" would suggest that while there is some abstract "correct" value for everything, it really doesn't matter as much as the game/negotiation. The objective is to maximize your own value - which often entails maximizing the value for the other player(s). So what am I getting at with this mumbo-jumbo????

1) Make a couple of models of the economics of running a BBS. As people mention, the finances seem to be pretty grim the more successful they get. Once you have 2 or 3 validated models, you will most likely have a pretty good idea what the ball park is. Put these aside.

2) Figure out how much a BMW BBS would be valuable to you (NPV of the cash values is the industry standard). As mentioned earlier, this could assume a certain amount of purchase activity based on the BBS activity. Since you don't have any direct IT links between your BBS and your business, you might just want to consider a quick coorelation analysis between BBS activity and Pelican's revenues. A richer picture could be derived by considering each of the different Porsche forums (Aircooled verus watercooled for instance) separately versus the related revenue stream at Pelican.

Those two points will pretty much define the two extremes of the negotiation. Then the game is one to try to maximise the difference between the actual purchase price and your perceived value. This can be done by either haggling down the purchase price or taking some of the purchase price out of cash and into some other commodity which the seller values more then you do. The other option is to increase your value by developing ways to make more money from the BBS - but you were going to do this anyhow.

So there is my not so short $0.02 (as always). Good luck!

PS: Why don't you have sales for BBS members? For example - after 100 or 1000 posts, a X% certificate to Pelican if the user registers their email address and BBS user name in Pelican's customer database? Or how about a frequent Pelican status after spending $Y and registering on the BBS?

OK Wayne,

Free advice, worth every penny:

1) What's a BBS worth? No idea, but in my experience of car clubs (specifically their magazine editors) after 1-3 years most people are hacked off with doing something that takes enormous amounts of time and effort, and frequently gets little or no praise and is taken for granted...

So, what am I trying to say? Do your research, put out a few gentle feelers, and see if someone who has set up or "owns" a BMW site is getting fed up with it and fancies taking a break. You may find their site is much cheaper than someone who really loves doing it, or has only recently started.

2) An observation on human nature - People are very conservative (with a small c). The chances are I'll continue using the Pelican BBS for as long as it continues. I don't give a hoot about another site which has a better layout, or offers me a $1 discount on my next $50 worth of parts.

So, what am I trying to say? I doubt if you being a new "owner" of a BBS would cause a mass evacuation of members. BUT, because people hate and loath change, I'd keep it more or less exactly as it is, even if it looks and "feels" nothing like this BBS.

3) Be careful. A big killer of businesses in a recession is attempting to expand (remember the Hermit crab, and how vulnerable it is when it moves between shells!).

So, I'd say - are you sure this BMW thing is going to fly? Otherwise you'll be wasting time, effort and money trying to launch something that's time isn't right while simultanously taking time effort and money away from your core business - selling parts for Porkers...

Good luck to you. whatever you decide.

- roGER

Wayne, I like your analogy:

It's like pulling someone over on the road, and asking them to sell their Porsche, which they have 1000 hours and 1000s of dollars invested (but is only worth market value).

-Don

being that the bmw guys tend to work in groups, (2002, m3, etc), just set it up like the pelican system. you just click on the group you want to be in. (911, 914, etc). are there any already done that way?
just remember, a step up can be a step out.

I think we need a feed back forum for buyers and sellers.

My last buying transaction on this sight will have to be concluded in small claims court.

I think the majority of the sellers on Pelican are world class, however there would be value in exposing the ones who choose to be dishonest.

Thanks for the thumbs up on bimmerforums.

Quite coincidentally our model is very much like the one I'm hearing this board as having.

I agree that there is significant fragmentation in the model range on BMW's boards, but to be perfectly honest, MANY parts are transferrable between models - within reasonable distances of years. 2002 parts ARE NOT going to be similar to E30 or E36 parts, BUT, E46 parts CAN be transferred to E36, E65 parts CAN be tranferred to E38 parts, etc.

What is ALWAYS transferrable is intelligent research, mechanical advice, and "community" between ALL the bmw model ranges. That's what we're striving to do here.

BF.C (our shorthand naming) is determined to be the PREMIERE board, but SLOWLY and effectively.

Along with myself (1998 ///M3/4 E36 & E38 740i), our Admins have modified (not just aesthetically, but SC, Pistons, Turbo, wheels, suspensions, lighting, you name it) cars that allow us to be effective in our responses.

Wayne, I will respond to you privately on the other stuff:D:D

I think the member that got me here was JOHNPAUL but we also have another one, Stuttgart951, that has mentioned this place before:)

BTW - we have great admiration for Porsches, anyone browsing our board will be happy to know that:)

Quality, not Quantity.
 

Am I a typical yard stick to measure by?
In this order of priority:-
1. First, I am a Porsche enthusiast - passionate.
2. I came searching for like minded - so I could learn more.
3. I liked the interface - "I" can see that you acknowledge my participation.
4. I discovered it was linked to parts purchase - convenient, competitive.
5. Expert advise - from the BBS owner himself and others.
6. Great personalities and characters - often entertaining.
7. Good meeting place - I've made friends, local and afar.
All of these keep me coming back.
1, 2, and 5(if I had to narrow it down) being the most essential.

BUT, ya gotta eat and if I'm not converted into a "paying" customer (4.) then is a BBS worth anything more than a warm fuzzy feeling? Despite the number of participants.

I would look at it a couple of ways;

What will it cost you to duplicate the site you are evaluating for purchase?

What type of premium do you place on having it now vs. later?

Are there other viable bidders interested in such a site?

It is conceivable that the price you place on such a site IS the market.

I think it's a great idea. I also think you should not be shy about marketing directly to people that subscribe to your BBS. As I far as I can tell you are not currently doing this. If you are worried about the issue of spam, don't be. Participants in your BBS all have a common interest and are already purchasing what you specialize in. Push marketing for your type business is totally acceptable to most of the clientele you serve and is not confused with the countless irrelevant spam email we are bombarded with daily. That is as long as you don't get out of hand, which I don't see happening because of you conservative approach thus far. Once every couple of weeks wouldn't bother me at all.

Good luck with with your decision.

I'm not interested in spamming people. To be honest, our Porsche sales are one thing that has kept our BMW site on the back burner. Sales increases year-over-year have been in the triple digits for the past 4 years (we started five years ago). If it ain't broke...

Consequently, this weekend was another record for on-line orders! (thanks everyone). This beats our previous record (from two weeks ago)...

If anyone ever wondered why the engine book is taking so long, it's because things like these (that pay the bills) kindof get in the way.

Your input here is 100% great feedback.

The big question is "how easy would it be to create and build our own forum, and how quickly could that be done?" It takes time to create these things. I have no question at all that we can create a viable, interactive forum, but it will take the right mix and a bunch of time. I've got feelers out to a bunch of people running BMW forums - I'll have to see if they bite.

-Wayne

Hi Wayne

My $0.02 worth on the topic:
I would not even begin to value a BBS apart from basing it on future value of expected revenue streams.

My main comment comes from being both a (long-time) BMW owner and a (newbie) Porsche owner, and the differences that I can perceive in the use/maintenance of these cars. I have owned or currently own an E30, 2x E36 and E39 BMW's. Most of these started out new, and had warranties or maintenance plans taking care of servicing needs for extended distances (up to 100000 km or 60000 miles for the metrically challenged). BTW, it is being said that the US is metricing inch by inch. ;) It was therefore never required of me to actually get my hands dirty with these cars, apart from compulsive oil level checks, tyre pressures and such complicated tasks. One exception was the E30 325i, that I bought used without a maintenance plan. I am therefore of the opinion that the majority of BMW BBS visitors with new model cars do so for technical advice to evaluate or diagnose some issues, but would leave the maintenance or repairs to the agents since these would mostly be covered by the maintenance plan or warranty. So I would guess that the only real business opportunity (parts sales) would lie with the owners of older models who would do their own repairs or modify them for track use, and there may well be a fair number of them. The correllation with the Porsche BBS will be if you can distinguish BBS visitors and/or parts sales between older 911/944/928 owners and 993/996 owners?

So you can understand why I had to get a car that I can actually tinker with, and I am having great fun learning with my SC!

I wish you good luck with thinking about these issues before offering someone cold hard cash for his BBS, and I look forward to the 101 projects book for the E36!

LeRoux