I came too late.......
 

David,

Find a mechanic who understands the Ketronic system well and has worked on them. In the past, people where switching away from CIS because of their failure or frustration to troubleshoot the problem/s to make the engine run well. I knew nothing about CIS when I bought a '78 SC targa in 1990. No books (except Haynes), no PP forum, and nobody to turn to for assistance........this was the past. The lack of understanding was the main reason why some people thought it was a poor system.

I wish you are closer and help you get this beautiful car back on the road. I've been looking for a CIS problem that you or any DIY'er could not diagnose correctly or fix at home. And I'm still looking for one. At this point, you have some choices:
a). Have a shop do the job itself. And just pay them.
b). Get dirty and spend time tinkering the 911 engine, and enjoy the experience.
c). Do nothing at all.

You would need a pressure gauge kit if you decide to work on a fuel injection system regardless which system. This is a mandatory tool. Lastly, you might need a new battery to begin with. Do you have a battery charger?

Keep us posted.

Tony

Nope.........
 

System fuel pressure is determine by the FD setting (primary valve) at around 5 bar (70 psi). A typical CIS FP for 911 requires a 90 psi (minimum) delivery pressure. For single FP CIS, a new FP could have up to 100 psi. fuel pressure.

Tony

Thread update: going to copy and paste some of an email I sent to a friendly member here which detailed tonight's progress I had with the car and my plans for tomorrow.

I got a few things done on the car tonight (air filter, distributor cap + ignition rotor, new hood and decklid shocks, and spark plugs). The plugs were a real pain the the neck; I got through the drivers side ones ok, but the passenger side ones were a total nightmare. On the middle one, the old plug somehow got wedged awkwardly inside the engine when I had it loose and was pulling it out. It took me almost two hours bent over to finally figure out the correct angle where it would un-wedge itself and slide out. Absolute nightmare and needless to say, my back is absolutely destroyed.

Plan for tomorrow is:

-Go buy oil and do an oil/filter change
-figure out some way to siphon the old, nasty fuel out of the tank, clean the strainer, and maybe purge the fuel lines
-install the new fuel filter
-pressurize the system with oil and check for fluid leaks
-throw some good, new fuel in the tank with some sort of techron or injector cleaner in it
-disconnect the ignition system and check for fuel leaks
-and if all appears gtg, try and get it to start

Long list, but at least I'll have loads of reading material if I run into issues (which with my luck after tonight, I surely will).

The two things I'm still not sure on, but I'm going with at this point are the plugs (which are installed and staying in there unless its definitely wrong) and the fuel filter.

The WR5s are cooler plugs than the W6s that came out of it, but I'm guessing that it's not going to make a significant difference.

The K40 filter is what the Porsche mechanic sold me, so I am assuming that is correct. Still have to tighten the fittings on that things too since I swapped them off my old filter.

Were the old plugs a uniform colour
 

Congratulations on changing the plugs. As you learned, its hard the first time, but on a lot of modern cars its even more tedious!! Were the old plugs a uniform colour - was one (or more) of the electrodes different?

Just be careful turning the motor over - with the ignition on - & make sure the distributor & coil leads are all connected. I have read on this forum that you can damage the electronic ignition box (CDI) if you disconnect some leads while doing this (but i cant recall the specifics).

Another easy test is to turn the ignition on and listen for a faint whistle noise coming from inside the CDI box - this is a good sign which shows that the box is 'ready'.

The one item on my SC that caused me grief was the fuel pump relay. Its round & red and sits above the fuses in the trunk. It plugs in sideways & it actually fell out of its plug. Its probably the only thing that has let me down - its a known 911 problem, but as a new owner I couldn't fathom what was happening. Luckily I read up on this forum before I started replacing parts unnecessarily like fuel pumps. Good luck ;) Peter

Fuel Tank Filter Replacement
 

Have a look at this thread:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/724083-fuel-pump-fuel-tank-filter-replacement.html

It shows what's inside a CIS fuel tank & how a gallon of crap can sit in a tank and not be picked up by the fuel outflow as the swirl pot sits high in the tank.

There is also a great tip on what tool to use to undo the tank filter - an upside down spark plug socket !!!!! :eek: Its information like this which makes this forum so good.

So make sure you pull out/check this filter and then squirt some carby cleaner inside the bottom lip where the fuel outflow is.

I was actually pleasantly surprised by the condition of the components that came out of the car. The air filter and hood shocks aside, most were in pretty good shape. The plugs looked uniform and I'm pretty good shape, though they did have some surface rust on the side of a few of them. The distributor cap looked pretty good too, though the old ignition rotor was glued to the distributor I guess and it shattered apart when I tried to pull it off. I had to clean the shaft on the distributor to properly fit the new rotor.

The CDI box does make that funny whining noise when your turn the key to accessory, but it does sound really weak.

CIS Troubleshooting.......
 

David,

I have not encountered or failed to start an SC engine and I work at home. I would even pay the expenses of delivering the car or engine if I failed to make it run. This is how easy and simple to make an SC engine to run. In your case, you are more than 1000 miles away and logistic to deliver the car is expensive. But we could do it over the internet.

If I were in your shoes, these are what I would do:
1). Drain the fuel tank and remove as much old fuel as possible. Inspect the fuel tank filter. Clean and re-install.
2). Drain engine oil and replace with new oil and oil filter.
3). I do not recommend replacing the old fuel filter at this point. It's old but this won't stop the car from running. Install a fuel pressure gauge and record the fuel pressures (system, control, and residual). You must have a fuel pressure gauge for this job.
4). Replace the old spark plugs and set gap. Get a replacement distributor rotor.
5). Have a fully charged battery.
6). Read and learn how to test the fuel pump. This is a well discussed topic in this forum. Including how the FP relay works.
7). Have an inductive timing light available.
8). Avoid replacing CIS components unless confirm and tested be defective.
9). Purge the fuel system with fresh gasoline with some fuel injector cleaner like Techron or similar product. This where the knowledge of testing a FP would be needed.
10). Test fuel injectors (detail to follow). Find out how to pull out injector/s from mount.
11). Others.

This is where feedback and communication between you and the people trying to help you is critical. I have given you only 10 items to consider because these are what came up from top of my head and I could have easily missed some. Start to ask questions. There is no such thing as stupid or dumb questions. Only stupid answers.

The key to attaining a successful start up depends on you alone. You are our only link to the engine/car. You may feel intimidated by the suggestions given to you, they are just procedures commonly done by people doing CIS troubleshooting and there is nothing sophisticated about them. In case of some doubt, raise up a question and you'll get a reply. Keep us posted.

Tony

Lots of progress.... Very cool.

I would add some Marine Sta-bil to your fuel to try to control the corrosive effects of any ethanol in your fuel. I add it to every tankful. Do not know if it really helps but it makes me feel better.

Check posts 20 and 21 of this thread for some really good advice from Grady Clay (ignore his advice at your own peril):

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/183215-winter-storage-checklist.html

1) Having difficulty draining the fuel tank. I'm using a siphoning hose to try and get it out, but the level of the tank is lower than the container I'm pumping it to. So naturally, its not flowing. I also figure there is about 1/2 a tank of fuel in there, which amounts to 8-10 gallons I think. So I can't just unplug the bottom of the tank and let it flow out obviously. The way I've been siphoning it is by removing the fuel level sensor and going out the top. Any better way to do this? Don't think I want to use an electric pump...but I obviously haven't gotten to the tank filter yet.

2) I'm also having trouble draining the oil. I couldn't get either of the oil plugs out (either under the engine or the oil reservoir). What I ended up doing is taking the entire oil sump plate off, which was a piece of cake. When I did that, at least 8 quarts, but probably closer to 10 came out of it.

That leads me to believe that its mostly drained at this point, but I don't know for sure because i can't get the damn plug out from under the reservoir. The filter came out without too much of a fuss, but I haven't put the new one in yet until I figure out to do with the plug.

Thoughts? I think it might be rusted to the tank itself. I mean, I grabbed the right socket size and made sure I was applying torque in the right direction like 6 times and it wouldn't budge. I put a breaker bar on the end of the driver and applied so much torque that two things happened. First, it started to strip the plug (which i couldn't really believe) and then it sheared my socket extension clean off inside the socket (extension wasn't high quality).

I'm really concerned that if I'm not careful, I'll strip the damn nut and I'll really be screwed.

3) I'll install the old filter again. I'll need help with the gauges when I get to that stage, but I have to get through the first problems first.

4) Replaced the plugs, but forgot to set the gap. It looked ok when I looked at it. Admittedly, I should have been more anal about it. Hopefully it wont be an issue. I also replaced the distributor cap and rotor.

5) Brand new battery is ready to go in it.

6) Planning on doing this once I get through the oil and fuel tank issues.

7) Not really sure what this is, but it sounds like it might be useful. Again, will look into it when I sort the other issues.

8) Understood and agreed.

9) Bought techron and 3 gallons of 91 fuel. And advice on how to proceed in purging the system would be appreciated.

10) Advice on how to proceed again appreciated. I have both the "101 Projects" and "Bentley manual" books which I'm sure will have some advice on how to proceed.




What I need first really is how to deal with the oil and fuel issues highlighted in sections (1) and (2).

Buy an electric transfer pump and some hose rated for gas and oil and pump out the 2 tanks.
Harbor Freight perhaps?
A little pricey for one use, but it will get the job done.
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-diesel-transfer-pump-66784.html

That definitely could help with pumping them out, but that still leaves me the problems of:

1) All the varnish-y gunk at the bottom of the gas tank.

2) The stuck drain plug under the oil reservoir. At least I know I can get a whole new oil sump plate and plug for the bottom of the engine...not so easy for the reservoir

For 1) the gas tank, I would just get 2 big oil drain buckets & put them next to each other under the tank on lots of newspaper & then undo the filter plug - when one looks like its filling up, slide the other one under the flow. This is NOT the most delicate way however you will get most of the old gas out. Wear good gloves as stale petrol stinks.

For the gallon or so that is left below the level of the internal swirl pot. I would just get a cheap ($15) drill pump and fashion a wide " U " shaped tube on the inlet & stick it up the filter hole.

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/c...image_8908.jpg


Heavy Duty Drill Powered Pump

For 2) the oil tank , If there was a lot more oil in the engine than you expected, then I suppose most of the oil has gradually flowed from the oil tank into the engine sump while the car has been sleeping.
I agree that you shouldnt try & force this oil pump plug at this early stage. Just refill with new cheap oil the same amount that came out because you will likely doing a few more partial oil changes soon after you get it running & by that stage you will have nearly all new oil.

Good to see you are gradually getting there.
Peter

I had the same idea once and was warned, that the possible sparks caused by the drill could be dangerous in respect of the fuel handled.

I'd refrain from from that suggestion in combination of fuel draining.

As a pump-solution for draining non inflamable luquids its OK.

While replacing the cap and rotor, take the time to lubricate the distributor, as needed.

Raise the car in the front and put it on jack stands. Remove the protective cover from the car. disconnect the fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump to finish draining the tank. This would be a good time to evaluate the condition of the fuel lines. Remove the pump and clean it.

Give the oil tank plug a couple of whacks on the bottom with a hammer. Heat it up with a heat gun a few times and spray some Kroil on it. Dress down any damage to the sides of the hex shape on the drain plug and try to remove it with a good quality 6 point socket and breaker bar. This is one example of why you don't want to use cheap tools.

There are sockets made for removing damaged bolts and nuts and you may need one of those.

JR

Stubborn drain plugs......
 

David,

You need to address the problems with the oil drain plugs and draining of the fuel tank first before you could make some significant progress to bring this car back to the road. There are many suggestions given to you and it is up to you to use which one you like. Different people have different ways and methods. One could be better or effective than the other. There are several ways to skin a cat.

Oil drain plugs removal:
Use an impact wrench with a six-point socket. Or use an extension for the breaker bar. Don't worry about ruining the plugs they are replaceable but don't damage the crank case or oil tank. That would be a costly mistake.

Fuel draining:
Gasoline is toxic and flammable. Be aware of these hazards before attempting to work on this. Have plenty of ventilation and use prudent safety practice. Eliminate source of ignition, open flame, hot surfaces, etc. around or near the work area.

I prefer to drain the spent fuel rather than siphon it out because I don't have a sealed electric pump (forgot the term). Using an electric drill to drive a siphon pump is too risky for this job!!!! I allow the gasoline to drain (controlled) by loosening the return line connection to the tank. Let it drip and adjust accordingly the flow to a receiver. Better to have extra containers than having an over flow of fuel on the garage floor. Having a fire extinguisher in the garage (work area) is advisable.

Whatever course of action you go, my only advise is stay safe. If you could find someone to be around please do so. I've been handling dangerous and hazardous chemical and materials for almost 50 years and I take this seriously every time.

Tony

Thanks for the ideas guys.

Regarding the fuel pump, I like the idea about the return line. I looked at the schematic in the Bentley manual and it's nice and low on the tank, which should make draining fairly easy. BUT, how does one access it? I looked at the tank from the top and can't see it, so I'm guessing I access it from the bottom, maybe behind the wheel well?

Regarding the oil plugs, I did consider using heat to loosen them up, but I thought better of it. What would I use anyway? Can't really use open flame, since it's oil we're talking about and there is an open fuel tank nearby.

I also like the idea of using an impact wrench on it, but the one I have is shot I think. I may have to man up and go buy another

Right set-up.......
 

David,

You need to set-up the car correctly for you to work efficiently and comfortably. You are young and flexible but as a senior citizen, bending and crouching under the car becomes difficult at times. You need to access the fuel tank return line fitting under the front end near the FP.

Jack the up the car high enough for you to get access for the removal of the skid plate covering the FP and front sway bar mounts. I prefer to use 4 jackstands (4 corners) and lift high enough for you to get a good access. This is the thick metal plate beside the fuel tank. There are 2 large nuts holding this plate. Remove the plate to expose the FP and the fuel line return fitting (passenger side).

Warning: If you have not done this before, make sure you are aware where the appropriate jack points for 911. Do not use the floor pan!!!!

After you have properly set-up the car, double check your work. Remove one of the front tires to get room and access (optional). And begin the removal of the skid plate. If you have any question, just ask.

Tony

Alright, I got the car in the air and I got the stubborn oil reservoir plug out with an impact wrench. Plug, threads, and washer look ok...no idea why it was so stuck. I'm guessing some idiot mechanic who did the last chane torqued them down wayyy too much. I'm considering replacing the plugs...haven't come to a conclusion on that yet.

New problem: the car won't roll freely. I dumped quite a bit of oil on the floor of my garage while getting that plug out and I was going to push the car out to clean it up. But it won't roll freely.

I checked the usual suspects; it's in neutral and the parking brake is off.

Thoughts? I can't really continue to the front of the car until I get this cleaned up...I'll get soaked.

jack up each wheel to see which one is stuck. if its the back youre e brake is probrobly stuck on at the wheels. I think one time that happend to me and i just sprayed up the plungers/leavers where the cables go into the backing plates and that freed it up. didnt even need to take the wheel off. For the fuel draining i would just disconnect it at the tank and let her flow. you probrobly need to replace that old line anyway. mine was so dried out it broke apart in my hand when i pulled it off

Raised both the rear wheels off the ground; the car is now sitting on jackstands in the back, wheels up front.

The rear wheels spin, but man oh man they don't spin freely. If I put both hands on the rims, I can get them to move in both directions, but there's alot of resistance.

Could this just be rust or something? Considering popping a wheel off to have a look at the hubs