SCAM or did I fall off the train?

[cab83_750]

I posted my accident of Tuesday this week and I called at least 4 places to get an estimate.

Guess how many welcomed my request?.......................................... .........................................and the magic number is...zero (0)!!!!

Well, when I called for estimates, I was told that they will only do estimate if I leave the car there for inspection AND repair. My response was..."I want an estimate, not a repair yet!" I receive chuckles from these places.

Not only that, nobody was able to say that they can tell if my engine 'moved'. OK, the car runs. But I think there are very subtle underlying problems.

A N D I N E E D Y O U R I N P U T!!!

1. The left bumper shock/absorber has a lot of fluid. I think it did its job, and more, and now it is burst. If burst, impact shock could have transferred to the "bdy/frame." The right bumper absorber appears to be dirt free. Sign of it compressing, and doing its duty without bursting.

2. The engine mount cross-member is bowed. Shouldn't this be straight? PLEASE, PLEASE, could somebody check theirs and see if your car's engine mount crossmember is straight.

3. The cross-member torsion bearing appears to be visible because the 'end-plate' is also bowed.

4. Bearing is now touching the rubber seal across from it.

5. The 'engine compartment apron' tore/cracked (is tearing) from both left and right welding points to the fenders.

6. For the lack of definition, the black "banana-looking" thingy above the air filter cover is now touching the insulation pad. And no, the insulation is not sagging. It is secure to the roof. IS THIS NORMAL, or did my engine bend upward a little bit. Could someone check theirs please.

7. I'll admit that shifting into first was almost impossible without a full stop. However, post-accident I 'definitely' have been having shifting problems into first even at dead stop.

8. In the morning, the car steering wheel shakes as if I need balancing and also a loud ticking sound that seem to be directly related to wheel rotation. These are harder to prove to the insurance company as they both disappear after few minutes of driving.

9. Lastly, I think by coincidence, 2 days after the accident, my steering wheel is now producing a scratching sound when turning. The sound sounds like rusted metals rubbing together. I bet because of the wheel vibration something broke. HELP!

Should I continue to investigate the previously recommended shops or do I just go the the dealer? Can I request for 'galvanization' prior to priming?

Please provide input so I talk more intelligently to repair shops/dealers on Monday!

Sorry to bore you guys, I am VENTING again.

Unless I hear or get an consensus from this board, I may just get the dealer to check the car for both engine and body damage. Heck, I will be requesting reimbursement from the insurance company anyway.

[This message has been edited by cab83_750 (edited 09-08-2001).]

[stray15]

Did you take it to a dealer? I never heard of a place not giving free estimates. Where are you from?

---

Porsche, through and through
Tim
'83 944

My Photo Page
My Home Page

[cab83_750]

I have not taken it to the dealer.

West Los Angeles, CA is 'race track' city!!!!

[cab83_750]

Looks like u do not have a 911. If you do, can you please verify your engine mount cross-member for me!

[Jim T]

The engine mounting bar should be straight.

Based on what you've said, it sounds like your car got pretty tweaked. Sorry!

[cab83_750]

Jim,

Thanks for the confirmation. But #$#$#$#, these Porsches are so good, from the outside it looks like a quick replace the lid, bumper, center and corner light fixtures, and that's it.

I guess because of good engineering, the engine in the back, plus those small German gremlins in the hood, everything held almost together.

How much do you know of the Porsche shop off Sta Monica Bl. and I think Veteran?


[This message has been edited by cab83_750 (edited 09-08-2001).]

[feelyx]

So... did you bounce when you hit the tracks...

I don't think I would be driving the car..
Atleast the dealer will likely use real Porsche parts
Oh... get a neck brace..Help cover the lower resale value of your car.

Good luck
Tim in Sac

[old_skul]

1. If a bumper shock "did its job" and burst, it absorbed impact energy and burst the absorber instead of transferring the energy into your frame. The *left* side is the one you should look closely at - look at the frame on that side.

2. It's dark out and I can't look at my car right now. No idea about the crossmember. I think it should be straight though.

3. Same.

4. What bearing?

5. If anything is torn or cracked, it is part of what needs to be repaired. Sounds like you took quite the shot.

6. SC-specific. Sorry, I have a Carrera.

7. If you were in gear when this accident occured, you need to offer the insurance company a choice: Either have a dealer (note I said DEALER) pull your tranny and splay it to check it out, or replace it with a rebuilt unit.

8. The entire car needs a 4-wheel alignment and each wheel and tire needs to be inspected for damage. It's possible that sliding along the concrete post-impact could have flat-spotted *all* your tires. The insurance company will likely say no to this, or ask you to pay for part of the tires. Your response should be "Uh, your client hit *me*, and I'm not paying ONE DOLLAR towards fixing what your client did to me. Ow, my neck hurts."

9. You need to replace the top steering wheel bushing on your wheel. It's a $13 part from Pelican. The OEM part is a white plastic bushing that likely shattered on impact and now lets your steering wheel shaft rub on the hub. You can do it yourself easily, but I'd tell the insurance company about it and let them replace your entire rack.

Look, with insurance companies, they *ask* you to do a lot of the legwork. This can work to your advantage - when I got hit I came up with a nice rebuilt tranny from *cough*Vertex*cough* and redid my clutch while they had it out of the car - a significant cost savings. But don't let them push you around: $50 to your attorney can get a letter out to them that will put the fear of the American Judicial System into them, and you'll get whatever you ask for. Just don't exceed the value of your car

And get to a doctor to get that neck looked at. I'm not encouraging you to defraud someone, I'm recommending covering *all* the bases - car, and self!

Good luck, hope everything turns out OK. Be prepared to be patient - it'll be a couple of months before your car is ready to rock again.

------------------
Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2
1987 Escort 5-speed 1.9 RIP
The Porsche Owners Gallery

[island911]

1. The left bumper shock/absorber has a lot of fluid. I think it did its job, and more, and now it is burst. If burst, impact shock could have transferred to the "bdy/frame." The left bumper absorber appears to be dirt free. Sign of it compressing, and doing its duty without bursting.

its job was to return the bumper to the original position (w/o leaking) from a 5mph bump. I don’t know what the burst speed would be though.

2. The engine mount cross-member is bowed. Shouldn't this be straight? PLEASE, PLEASE, could somebody check theirs and see if your car's engine mount crossmember is straight.

Yes the engine mount crossmember is straight; normally.

3. The cross-member torsion bearing appears to be visible because the 'end-plate' is also bowed.

4. . . . Yikes!

This is sounding like a total. Porsche only made the Cab in an SC 1 year, and it is sad to hear of one in such original condition getting munched. The problem with fixing these things, is it will never be be the same, and it is very time consuming chasing what else is damaged. Hopefully you are in better shape than the car and don’t have any damage showing up after a settlement.

---

'81 Platinum Metalic SC COUPE

[cab83_750]

Tim,

Actually, when I got hit by the Grand Cherokee, I open my eyes and my RPM was at almost red-line. And I almost FLEW like Peter Pan. Why?

It was stop and go. I stopped and had the clutch in and right foot on the brake. When I open my eyes, I guess because of bracing, I pushed down the brake so hard that I was ALSO pressing the gas pedal. Thank got I did not let the clutch go.

[cab83_750]

Island,

In all honestly, you made me sad again. Honestly!

I know your input is sincere. And what you said I have known for years. And that is why when you talked about originality, I thought it was "me talking to me". You AND I know the x-mark.

Injury, yes I have injury! I already asked the DR to tell me it is psychosematic (spelling maybe incorrect) but he, abruptly and without smiling, said NO!

P.S.

Funny thing, ex said...."I guess the lesson here is to get rid of your sports cars and your bike and just drive the Cruiser." In my mind, I said "Check is in the mail..."


Mark and Everybody tonight,

You guys are all cool!!! Please keep the info coming. The foreplay with insurance companies was last week. Next week, I will be in charge with knowledge gained from everybody.




[This message has been edited by cab83_750 (edited 09-08-2001).]

[island911]

Hmmm, I'm thinking that the engine shifting (moving) back as the rest of the car is knocked forward, that the accel-cable would open the throttle a bit. It doesnt take much to redline the engine with no load.

Anyway, you should likely be thinking more about finding a good lawyer more so than a good body shop.

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'81 Platinum Metalic SC COUPE

[dtw]

Cab,
Your engine is no longer where it is supposed to be. The cross member, engine mount, airbox, throttle position, and shift linkage issues all appear to be circumstantial to this.

Most often when a 911 takes a hard rear impact like this, adjusters take one look and write them off. You'd be surprised how much damage is really done to the 911 unibody on rear impact.

Just the symptoms you describe point to VBT's (very bad things). I really hope it is straightforward easily repaired damage- but from several years experience of examining wrecks and inspecting 911s, I must reluctantly advise you to start thinking objectively about the worst case scenario- there's one less 83 cab on the road.

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Dave
'72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project

[DAVIDM]

You definitely have significant damage to the frame and structural integrity of your car. Stop driving it.
To do list.
1. Call insurance company and tell them you are having the car towed to whatever body shop you choose. Then ask what rental car company will be delivering your rental car.
The body shop will pay the towing and be reimbursed for the towing charges. Make sure the towing co. has a flat bed hauler.
2. Make a long list of everything that is different. You know far more about your car than someone seeing the car for the first time.
3. Leave specific instructions that repairs are not to be started until YOU authorize. Insurance companies cannot authorize work.
4. The body shop will write an estimate and the adjuster will visit the shop and write a different estimate.
5. Make sure you get your copy. Now you have something to argue about with the claims representative. Have the body shop rep. go through both estimates with you so you know what will be done. KNOW WHAT IS IN THOSE ESTIMATES. Check out the shop and determine whether you want this shop to do the work. If the shop is unsatisfactory, call the insurance company and have the car towed to another shop. Once again everybody will be reimbursed for towing and now storage charges and any estimate fees. Just let the body shop try to get estimate fees out of the insurance company.
6.Ask if they have the special frame machine attachments for Porsches. Hondas and Mercedes also require special attachments.
7. Don't be too concerned about ins. co specifying used body parts. Just make sure you get to see the parts before they are installed. You have to make yourself highly available to the shop to check this stuff. The shop will get really upset if you ask for special services, then cost them time and money by not following through. And you don't want the shop pissed at you.
8. If mechanical parts are required, these should be new OEM.
9. Lots of OEM replacement parts will likely total the car. 50% - 60% of the market value of the car will total. Ins. co. has guidelines and claims people have some, but not much flexibility.
10. Start getting current market infomation on the value of your car.
11. The damage does not sound like the car would be totalled. Most everything you mentioned means the rear of the car is moved around, but most will realign themselves when the structure is straightened and bent parts replaced.
12. Prepare to spend a lot of time up front and save heartache on the back end.
13. Only fellow P-nuts will care that you are emotionally attached to your car. Act as if you are emotionally attached to the value of your car and that you are willing to spend the time, money and effort necessary to reclaim every little bit of that value.
David

[john walker's workshop]

a couple of my friends own body shops. all day long, people from 16 to 80 pop in for a free estimate. it's generally a waste of time because 90% of these folks aren't serious. to properly check a damaged car to give an accurate as possible estimate, takes some time. some have to be set up on a frame rack to check for twisting, etc. that takes a lot of time, as well as looking up parts prices and preparing an estimate and then explaining it to you. a fender crease is one thing, but a rear ender is entirely another. not to mention liabilities. they would much rather deal with the insurance company who delivers the car to them to estimate and do the repair, without having to deal with the picky customer. life is a lot easier for them that way. can't say i blame them.

[This message has been edited by john walker's workshop (edited 09-09-2001).]

[speeder]

Windsor,
Establishment on Santa Monica and Veteran is service dept. of Beverly Hills Porsche. I worked there in 80's when it was Westwood Porsche and same people are still there in service. Speak to Trevor Williams, General Service Manager. They will definitely give you the highest estimate in the Free World on anything from gas cap to engine/trans work. You have the right to choose shop,(among many other rights), and dealer is definitely where my car would be under the circumstances.
If car is totalled, which is definitely likely, they can help you with valuation. It will be nice and high, harder for insurance company to argue with Porsche dealer on your side.
Last VERY IMPORTANT POINT: If car is totalled, you have right to still keep the car! I.C. has to give you two figures: one if you give them car, one if you keep it. The difference,(your price), should be far less than parts value of car. You can then have car fixed for relatively reasonable cost and keep it w/ salvage title, part it for good profit, and/or use parts for new project car,(what I would do).
Some of this may be getting ahead of current events, but you must have a firm grasp of your rights at every stage. Obviously if you have a personal injury, this increases your leverage in any settlement.
My Great-grandfather was one of the founders of a major U.S. insurance company and a math genius who co-invented the tables that allowed for group insurance coverage. I know a little bit about the industry and advise you to go after them for whatever you can get at any legitimate opportunity- They do not have your best interest in mind! Furthermore, they will always win like a Vegas casino. Earthquake, flood, whatever... they win.

[This message has been edited by speeder (edited 09-10-2001).]

[pwd72s]

"significant damage to the frame "....on a 911? Hmmmmmm?

[cab83_750]

John,

I am a very busy single-parent, professional employee, dedicated-father, student, and a businessman. I respect my time and I very much RESPECTED the shops' time also.

Just to let you know, I prefix my business with these shops by VOLUNTARILY paying them for the services/estimates. I have great respect for everybody's time and effort and therefore the fee. Unfortunately, only one took the offer. I never expected, in my lifetime, to get anything for free.

Anyway, thanks for the inside scoop about free-loaders. I guess because of them, I am now paying for their free meals.


Speeder,

Thanks for the input. BTW, have we done business before? Sounds like you are ahead of me!

[speeder]

Windsor-
I am the guy that talked to you about oil cooler mount a little while back. If I can help you in any way, e-mail me @ denishartigan@yahoo.com and leave phone#. Do not use other e-mail on my profile- it does not work.

[Kurt B]

Beverly Hills Porsche is going to send you to Golden Hammer. They do Porsches, and they did mine. Just look them up, they're in the book.
Yes, of course your car because it got hit in the rear will never be the same. The rear quarter panel which is 1 panel both sides cannot be replaced realistically.
My car is not the same. People can't tell, but I can, and it ain't the same.
I went ahead and finished the things I planned on finishing, like the rims, since then, but the investment into it post-accident is over. While the future of the economy is part of it, most of it is in all honesty, the accident.
Sometimes, I still can't believe that stupid woman backed into my car, all alone in a parking log at an autocross, with her Ford truck.
Crack! and everyone standing around is looking at the car pairings with their hands over their mouths. Jesus, it still makes me ill just remembering that day.



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Kurt B
1984 Carrera Cabriolet
911 Page
carrera_cabriolet@yahoo.com