Anyone Installed a Retro Air Kit?

[deguitars]

I'm looking at the Retro Air Kit as a replacement/upgrade for the mediocre factory a/c on my '82 SC. Has anyone installed one, or something similar, and can offer feedback?

Thanks,
David

[wwest]

The factory A/C can be made to work much more satisfactorily, just provide a more consistent level of cooling airflow through the rear lid condenser at times when the engine fan does not.

One of the Pelican tech notes indicate that this can be done manually via lifting one of the cabin heat levers ever so slightly, just enough to start the cabin heat blower but not enough to open the flapper valve for heat flow into the cabin.

At 800 RPM this was shown, measured, to double the cooling airflow through the rear lid condenser.

'83-89 models made automatic use of this technique to help cool the engine in slow moving stop and go traffic.

[RSTarga]

have you looked at Rennaire or Griffiths, their kits seem a bit better integrated.

[aschen]

I have the griffiths basic kit for my 930. Their customer support is great and the kit is complete down to included zip ties and a very complete install manual. It is a lenthy but doable DIY. I added the high output blower motor which is fantastic but a bit noisy.

So far it is working great here in houston. Ive only been able to test up to about 90 ambient though.

[wwest]

Keep well in mind: Misery LOVES company.

Misery = having paid over $2,000.00, plus DIY labor, for what might possibly have been accomplished for less than $200.00.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by wwest

Keep well in mind: Misery LOVES company.

Misery = having paid over $2,000.00, plus DIY labor, for what might possibly have been accomplished for less than $200.00.

Yea, right.

The Griffith's system works in the real world. I will be driving though death valley in June this year. I am not going to to turn on my heater to make the AC work better.

More condensers and replacement hoses to stop the leaks really work to make the AC blow cold air. The heater fan moves very very little air compared to the cooling fan for the engine.

[Arne2]

For Death Valley, I'd want more condensers too. For a milder climate, I got by with just an upgrade (higher efficiency serpentine) evaporator and front condenser. Oh yeah, and the barrier hoses to stop the leaks the car had had since new...

[wwest]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Yea, right.

The Griffith's system works in the real world.

Insofar as I am aware NO ONE has ever contented otherwise.

I will be driving though death valley in June this year. I am not going to to turn on my heater to make the AC work better.

Sorry, but your "heater" is always ON, just dumping the heat output under the car.

More condensers and replacement hoses to stop the leaks really work to make the AC blow cold air.

The evidence seems to indicate that allowing the refrigerant pressure to rise well above the system design specifications is what results in hose leakage.

The heater fan moves very very little air compared to the cooling fan for the engine.

"The heater fan moves very little air compared to the cooling fan for the engine"


But only with the engine operating at somewhat elevated RPMs, and consistently so.

With the engine RPM consistently at or near idle, as it often is in traffic, activating the cabin heater blower (without heating the cabin) DOUBLES the cooling airflow through the rear lid condenser.

Let us know the results of that Death Valley drive. Even with the windows heavily tinted my LS400's A/C struggled with that one.

Oh, how many aftermarket kits actually add base refrigerant condensing capacity? Or is the "gain" moreso the forced air cooling of an equal level of "base" condensing capacity?

[aschen]

Originally Posted by wwest

Keep well in mind: Misery LOVES company.

Misery = having paid over $2,000.00, plus DIY labor, for what might possibly have been accomplished for less than $200.00.

Yes I am clearly trying to rationalize my purchase . You are the one that seems to like to spread misery. I just presented the facts of my installation. You really should be ashamed of how you respond to all these AC threads.

If you posted an honest "hoses don't always need to be replaced" or "I've had luck with making the stock components work" , I would be more understanding.

My hoses like many (most?) 30 year old hoses were dry rotted and needed to be replaced anyways. Hose replacement was the only non optional replacement bit of the kit I had. I'll consider the extra $700 I spent for new heat exchanges a good measure. Maybe the old ones would have been fine. I weighed the pros and cons of trying to straighten out fins and flushing out old congealed oil.

[Arne2]

Originally Posted by wwest

The evidence seems to indicate that allowing the refrigerant pressure to rise well above the system design specifications is what results in hose leakage.

Whose evidence? Can you document? Because the evidence in my case indicated that over pressure was not a factor. My car lost 30+ ounces of R-12 over a four month period during which time the A/C was not turned on even once. No leaks were found. Obviously, no over-pressure condition can exist if the A/C has not been run. After replacing the hoses, no further leakage has occurred, after an even longer period (5 months) of non-use.

wwest is back to his old tricks, spouting his own theories as fact. No proof of said "facts" though.

[jwakil]

I have direct experience with the Retro Air kit on my 930. I basically have all the R134 upgrades but with original compressor. I will give you an honest and objective opinion:

The good: the performance is quite good. It cools very well, almost as good as the new cars out there.

The bad: I got two leaky hoses that leaked due to bad crimping (it was definitely at the crimp, not at the o'ring). They didn't leak initially, but after a few months one went, replaced that, then another went. Major headache. I called them and while they offered cheap replacement hoses, the guy acted like a total jerk when I indicated I didn't want to take a chance on his hoses again and asked for a discount on a compressor instead. It turned into an ugly customer relation issue I would rather forget. I might have just gotten unlucky and got the only bad hoses they ever made, but I don't know. He was obviously very offended and thought it was impossible that they could have made any mistakes and kept mentioning all the good reviews he had. I was trying to be very professional but basically got the middle finger for questioning their workmanship.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Arne2

Whose evidence? Can you document? Because the evidence in my case indicated that over pressure was not a factor. My car lost 30+ ounces of R-12 over a four month period during which time the A/C was not turned on even once. No leaks were found. Obviously, no over-pressure condition can exist if the A/C has not been run. After replacing the hoses, no further leakage has occurred, after an even longer period (5 months) of non-use.

wwest is back to his old tricks, spouting his own theories as fact. No proof of said "facts" though.

Over pressures can/might result in displaced O-rings or seals or even tiny pinholes in the hose walls resulting in loss of refrigerant "later".

[wwest]

Evidence:

Guidance on Retrofitting to HFC-134a | Ozone Layer Protection - Regulatory Programs | US EPA

http://www.epatest.com/609/manual/609_sect

http://cbsparts.ca/admin/bulletins/KysorRetrofitGuide.pdf


20th Annual Technical Forum: A/C Refrigerant Hoses: Counterman

There are dozens more if you care to look.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by jwakil

The bad: I got two leaky hoses that leaked due to bad crimping (it was definitely at the crimp, not at the o'ring).

Ouch! I have read very similar complaints regarding Retro-Aire.

Not boatloads, but a handful.

To the OP I suggest this:

If you are in a northern state, get you system working fully up to snuff. It's adequate. Mediocre is an unfair term north of the Mason Dixon line. Well, maybe 100 miles south of Canada.

Down south you are sucking major wind with the original equipment.

Retro Aire is an economical choice. Rennaire I will not comment on. Although, I don't see much support from website review. In fact is is lame. (but I did not really comment)

If you want to put the issue to bed, spend the extra long one on your package and go with Griffith's Tech. Seriously, if you have a wee bit of coin to splurge, even if it hurts a bit, you cannot go wrong. Trust me on this.

Also, if we know where you live, there are PP members that will help you with the install. I know I would. It kinda gives this old man a little wood to get a system on track. But I digress.

Do not blow off wwest's input because folks "diss" him. He has some worthy input for cars that have a chance in hell of cooling adequately - i.e., 100 miles south of Canada. Deep south, you need a MAJOR step change in performance.

Regarding wwest's over pressurization claim, I have some plans of working in concert this summer with the 'ol Salty Dog to prove or disprove the claims.

[tirwin]

My Griffith's parts came in last week. Will be starting the upgrade soon. The Griffith's documentation is extremely thorough and if there are additional bits and pieces I'll need for the job I will be surprised. I've done quite a few projects on my SC. It's nice when you get a kit of that doesn't require you to make 2 or 3 trips to the store looking for this and that.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by tirwin

My Griffith's parts came in last week. Will be starting the upgrade soon. The Griffith's documentation is extremely thorough and if there are additional bits and pieces I'll need for the job I will be surprised. I've done quite a few projects on my SC. It's nice when you get a kit of that doesn't require you to make 2 or 3 trips to the store looking for this and that.

If your kit doesn't include a RED DOT (R-134a pressure limits) pressure switch then I would suggest packing it up and return shipping it. Ever better, a trinary pressure switch which can be used to run the condenser cooling fan/blower independent of the compressor clutch.

Your '83 has the heat control module with the ability to run the cabin heater blower when/if conditions warrant. If the "kit" doesn't quite do the job then you can wire the third switch element into the module to aid the "kit" in worse case conditions.

[ganun]

I did the complete kit, I only reused the front cond.
Good, nice big rear cond
Parker hoses
serpentine evap.
stronger blower

Bad, noisy blower
leaky low side service valve
Sanden knock off
combination of port arrangement and hose termination interference with engine and oil filter access
have yet to get it as cold as expected
some hoses might benefit from 45 rather than 90 termination

Since my car needed the all the parts I went with a kit that basically is similar to the oe but with modern components. I believe I have yet to get the thing running at 100%

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by wwest

If your kit doesn't include a RED DOT (R-134a pressure limits) pressure switch then I would suggest packing it up and return shipping it.

Be careful, wwest. I will tear your ass wide open. You want to play this game after the agreement?

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by wwest

If your kit doesn't include a RED DOT (R-134a pressure limits) pressure switch then I would suggest packing it up and return shipping it. Ever better, a trinary pressure switch which can be used to run the condenser cooling fan/blower independent of the compressor clutch.

Your '83 has the heat control module with the ability to run the cabin heater blower when/if conditions warrant. If the "kit" doesn't quite do the job then you can wire the third switch element into the module to aid the "kit" in worse case conditions.

Willard,

I want to like you, but I don't.

My '83 has the autoheat option, so it does not have the capability you describe.

I really can't believe you're bringing this ish up again... Just like a moth to a flame...

[Jesse16]

I just completed a 7 day griffith install (wife was out of town), I'd say actual work hours were something like 20+ but I was in no hurry. I did a his "single Keuhl" added condenser version. I drive my car approx. 12 to 15k per year and I want there to be no excuse not to drive to South Carolina or GA during the summer, period.
I'd say the hardest thing to do was for me was updating the fan and thermo control due to the tight space inside for my hands. Also documentation on how to disassemble my "specific" console wasn't in the documents (which are a sizable document anyway). Don't think there is any way to document all the different ways the interior was done for different years and models.
I did a new front condenser, hoses (fit perfect), evaporator, compressor, and single fender condenser (very easy install), and interior controls. Got it charged up over the weekend at a national chain and its been no warmer than 60 since so no comment so far. I didn't do anything about my fan, I think it does OK for now.
I do notice that my front condenser fan is howling and shaking, its actually a new unit from 3 years back. I need to take it off and make sure there isn't a stick or leaf inside the cage, had that happen once. Has the fuse adder for fire protection.
It is a big job to do, no question. I can say I know a lot more about my cars plumbing though. Summer will be here soon enough, then will know results.