911 SC Purchase or Run???

[outtreking]

A guy I work with has a 1983 Porsche 911 SC with 110k miles on it that I have heard about for years and is going to sell it now. I visited him yesterday to take a look at it and get a better feel of what the car is and some of it's history. He had mentioned the car was in great or in his words "mint," condtion in and out. He did forewarn me of a small ding on the passenger side by the rear quarter where it flares out and another on the hood. He also mentioned a few little rock chips and the dash is curling from the sun. When I arrived. I was impressed with what I immediately saw in the driveway. It is red and shiny. It has a factory installed whale tail and sunroof. The Michelin tires look like they are in great condition and have a few thousand miles on them. There are actually quite a lot of small rock chips on the hood and several others on the bumper, near the headlights on the fenders are, on the backs of the mirrors and a couple on the windshield channel. Is this common for a 31 year old Porsche with 110k miles on it? With the last tire change came a new set of Fuch's that are black with a polished lip and painted centers. The interior is in really good shape and clean other than a little bit of cracking in the drivers seat leather and the curling of the dash near the windshield. Everything in the cockpit seems to be in good working order including the power windows, mirrors, sunroof, and Blaupunkt radio. The instruments and clock work on the dash. The heat works, but the A/C doesn't. Records indicate this has always been a problem with this car. Records also indicate there was a replacement of the clutch system, oil return tubes, oil hoses, and tensioner update kit at about 94k milles. At about 96k miles the head studs were replaced.

This could be my first Porsche purchase. Would it be advisable to buy this car as a driver and do some work on it or should I steer away from it? And what would be a fair price to pay for this car in the opinion of the forum? Is it advisable if I purchase the car to have it painted or leave the original paint with the chips? I appreciate any advice any of you can afford me. Sorry for the lengthy description and I hope I am posting this in the correct place.

Thanks again,

[CCM911]

Looks like an honest car. Just be sure that the owner has receipts to back up all the work that he told you was done.

Mine has a bunch of paint chips as well. I say don't paint it and just drive the daylights out of it.

I am not sure of SC prices, but I think they range between $12k and $20k depending on condition. You should be somewhere near the middle. I am sure that smarter folks than I will soon chime in.

Best of luck.

[scarceller]

The stock AC system never held up well in these cars so don't worry about that. If you need AC you can expect to spend about $1000.00 in parts to install a decent upgraded system and do the work yourself and then just have it charged.

At 100K the rock chips are expected if original paint.

Look very closely for signs of rust:
- in the front wheel well just behind the front tires, the area in front of the door hinges.
- around front windshield
- in and around fuel filler door
- in rear wheel wells, right in front of rear tires, area behind the door striker plate where the door locks into.
- Floor pans

[Dave Colangelo]

That car is in really good shape considering what some people have been buying these days. I would put the price right at 16K but that does not mean you cant get it for 13K if he is willing to sell and does not really know what he has. As for the issues I will say the following,

The AC even in full working order will never do more than cough cool air at you, anyone here will attest to that. If its working AC you want than be prepared to put an aftermarket system in as that is what most everyone who wants working AC does. This is simply an aspect of these cars. As for the rock chips, the car has 110K on it, a few rock chips is expected, my whole hood is practically a rock chip at this point. A car can always be touched up, that is a minor issue.

It looks like everything is there and SC's are GREAT cars, still fast even by todays standards. The car looks like it has not really even been modded which is a nice thing as mods can go terribly wrong if done poorly. As mentioned above, receipts are key but if you trust the guy that will play into it also. Its a driver there are no two ways about that. I say buy it, have some fun, and drive it until you get board and want to work on it....


Regards
Dave

[NYNick]

By your description and the two pictures, the cars looks to be in good shape. Certainly inspect the records closely, the further they go back the better.
Of course bring an LED flashlight and go to town looking under the car, under the trunk carpeting and everywhere you can. It is always good to bring another pair of eyes with you: they'll see things you don't. These kind of rock chips on a car of 110K is standard.
You didn't mention that you drove it. That will give you the best impression, but inspect the daylights out of it first.
Lastly, the seller should agree to a Pre-Purchase inspection by a local Porsche Mechanic. Not just any mechanic will do…should be a specialist. Check your local Porsche Club for leads on shops.
I would think this car would go for $16-22k. But no PPI, no deal!
Nick

[Bob Kontak]

Not really seeing anything to steer away from unless price is too high.

When the studs were replaced where the heads refreshed? I would not shy away from the car for this reason but you can put this on the table when talking price. The head work would have been an extra $1,000 plus or minus to replace guides and a few valves when the studs were done. From scratch, it will be over $3,000 with the engine R&R.

You may want to think about this work in conjunction with a trans refresh down the road. Like ten years down the road if you keep things lubed and maintained.

A routine trans refresh is $2,500 when out and the heads will be $2,000 when engine is out of the car. The extra $1,000 on the heads are for engine work to get to the heads and put it back together. Add for pulling and replacing the engine.

I am probably off on the prices depending on the shop you use but the order of magnitude is in the ball park.

Doubt you will need pistons and cylinders. However, a professional compression test along with a robust pre-purchase inspection is advised. You work with the guy, so state that it makes sense to do a PPI for common sense purposes regarding your relationship.

Best of luck.

[Andy911sc]

Fully agree with Dave and Nick and Bob and Chris and Sal.

[wwest]

I'd jump at it as an initial Porsche 911 purchase, provided the price is reasonable.

Given that the windows are already tinted, the A/C can be fixed for less than $200.

Upgrade to R-134a, add a RED DOT trinary pressure switch to protect and control the compressor (limit the refrigerant pressure to a level appropriate to a legacy A/C system running R-134a), and increase the low speed, stop-an-go traffic (consistently low engine RPM) refrigerant condensing efficiency by wiring the third pressure switch element to the cabin heat blower control module.

The cabin heat control module is already configured to automatically turn on the blower should the engine oil temperature rise above a specified level should engine RPM not be sustained high enough for the engine blower to provide sufficient engine cooling.

Wire the RED DOT fan/blower control switch element in parallel with the cabin heat module's oil temperature sensing switch and be COOL....

[tirwin]

Visually, the car looks pretty clean. Rock chips are just a sign of a car that's been driven. Get the paint code off the car and order some touch-up from Dr. Colorchip. From that pic, that car is far from needing a respray but it's hard to tell from one pic.

Tensioner upgrade and replaced head studs are (generally speaking) signs that someone has been keeping the car up. Broken head studs are a fairly common issue with these cars (plenty of information on here if you search for dilivar head stud). Having that done already means you should get plenty of miles out of it.

The original A/C in these cars works marginally well at best, but it sort of depends on the climate of where you live. Back then R-12 was the common refrigerant. Environmental concerns mandated a switchover to R-134a. You can still get R-12, but it is getting more and more expensive and only licensed shops can support it. You can convert the system to R-134a but it won't work as well without some other modifications. Bottom line, if you really want the A/C to work, be prepared to fork out $2-3k in parts and labor. Now you know why a lot of people just remove the A/C from the car. The only concern with that is future resale potential (you might limit your market, but you can mitigate that by keeping the old parts).

If you can find a good INDEPENDENT Porsche mechanic in your area, it is always advisable to pay for a PPI (pre-purchase inspection). That car looks pretty good, but at least you'll have peace of mind and if there are repairs in your future like brakes, tires, etc. then at least you know what you're in for (and maybe you can use that in negotiating price). I emphasize independent because the dealerships really only care about modern cars. You need to find an old school mechanic that knows a thing or two about these things.

As far as price, I was going to give a link to Hagerty's price guide but it looks like the website is having problems. Try here later:

Classic Car Value

SC's have been trending up lately in prices. A lot of them are being bought here and shipped overseas.

Curious... why would you think that is a car to run away from? What is it that made your spidey sense tingly?

[wwest]

Paint, NO!

Paint chips have no effect on the JOY of driving a 911.....

[aoncurly]

I would suggest still having a PPI done by a reputable shop. Prices for 911SCs have been rising lately. If I were the seller, I'd price it at $22K and hope to get $20K.

As a daily driver, you would need to update/upgrade the AC as others have mentioned. My stock AC has never worked well, and the amount I now drive the car does not justify the expense to upgrade it at this point.

[javadog]

Chips are normal, leave the paint alone if you make it a daily driver.
Looks like it has only very minor changes, which is a plus.
It appears to have a full leather interior, which is nice. Warped dash is normal for that interior.
Make sure the Fuchs are real and not replicas.
Buy it, subject to a successful PPI.

JR

[glewis80SC]

Nice car...looks like its been driven but maintained the right way. I would if the price fit my budget, get a PPI to help settle your nerves. SC's are great little cars........come to think about it the car is junk, run away...but give the guy my number before you leave.

[TheSt|G]

Sounds normal from your description, but it also sounds like you didn't go too in depth.

You really need to do a thorough rust check, or have someone qualified do it if you are not. That's the biggest issue for the SC that can make or break a purchase.

Also get this: http://www.amazon.com/Porsche-911-Cabriolet-1978-1983-Essential/dp/1845843304/ref=la_B0034NYWYK_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398783499&sr=1-6

Treat it like your Bible for purchasing.

[outtreking]

Wow! You are all fast and very helpful with your time and replies. I really appreciate this support.

I guess I should have mentioned that I am not too concerned about the A/C issue. It's cooler with the windows down anyways right? My biggest concern was the paint. I didn't know if that would be a big price kill or not. The car didn't show a bit of rust in all of the usual place I have read about. The car drives well and sounds great! In all of the Volkswagens and older Porsches I have been in, the sounds were somewhat similar and this had a bigger sound to it.

As far as documentation, he has a book of many service and repair receipts going all the way back to the original owner including the business cards of the three prior owners to him stapled to the front of the book. On one of the receipts it mentions installing a Big Bore Piston Kit w/ stud job as well as heat exchangers. At this time, I am not positive if this was actually done to the car or just a price quote as all of the other receipts indicate a payment was made.

Thanks again for all of your replies and help in making me feel a little more secure with this car.

[dienstuhr]

First impressions are that this car looks nice. SC prices are rising along with Carrera 3.2s.

You might try the Marketplace forum if you'd like more feedback.

Cheers

d.

[darmahman]

I would use the a/c problem as a bargaining tool as it sounds like it would be an expensive fix. You might be surprised about not caring if the a/c works..

[jwakil]

Believe me, you will want a working upgraded AC unless you are just going to use the car for racing. Nothing sucks more than sitting in an expensive sports car and sweating like a dog, or not being able to hear yourself think on the highway with your windows down. Takes all the enjoyment out of the car. Unlike the classic mini I owned, the inside of the Porsche becomes an oven in the sun. If you can work on the car yourself, the expenses will be modest, if you have to rely on a air-cooled Porsche specialist be prepared to shell out big bucks for everything (like $2-3k just for the AC).

Also, I don't rely too much on receipts from shops unless it was a classic Porsche specialist (not some Porsche dealer down the street who hasn't seen an air cooled Porsche in years). Most shops would not know jack about the car and probably make things worse. The first couple of places I took my car when I was a newbie told me I needed an engine rebuild when in fact it was just a bad distributor!

At a minimum, I would have a leak down test done on the engine by someone who knows what they are doing.

[OsoMoore]

Originally Posted by tirwin

Visually, the car looks pretty clean. Rock chips are just a sign of a car that's been driven. Get the paint code off the car and order some touch-up from Dr. Colorchip. From that pic, that car is far from needing a respray but it's hard to tell from one pic.

With $60 and a couple of evenings of careful work you can make the chips invisible from 5 feet away. It will also help protect against corrosion. Definitely worth the money and time in my opinion.

[Eli W]

+1 on use the ac as a bargaining tool and the dash. The dash fix will require glass removal and not be cheap, but again both of those things have nothing to do with how fun the car is to drive.

I'm pulling the ac out of my 77 S and have no plans of replacing it. The ac's never worked that well in these cars to begin with and you have the right color seats for just running it without ac.

Just drive it with the windows down, it adds to the experience anyway you can hear that engine roar as it goes through the gears.