Had custom muffler made which does not fit?????
 

Hi All,

I posted a thread on Impact Bumpers looking for a ride to Le Mans from the UK as I had not been before and ending up being offered a ride in a modified 79 SC.

This car had a custom GT3 style muffler made by a well known exhaust builder mated up to SSI's in the UK which sounded amazing so I decided to have one made for my car.

I also have SSI's so it should have the exact same fitment.

I asked the builder if he could make me the exact same muffler which he agreed to do.

On the SC the tail pipes exit a couple of inches below the bumper and pass well beyond the outer edge of the bumper.

I brought the muffler home to Oz in my luggage but when I installed it the tail pipes were right against the bottom edge of my bumper and the ends were about midway under the bumper.

I emailed the builder who offered to send me a pair of intake flanges if I paid the postage. The idea being to change the angle of the intake flanges but this would just make the tail pipes angle downwards and look odd plus didn't address the fact the tail pipes were too short to pass beyond the bumper.

Then the builder offered to make up a new pair of offset tail pipes at my cost and postage. Either fix would have had me take the muffler to a muffler shop here to alter at my cost.

I asked the builder to either build me a new muffler that fits or pay the cost of having the muffler altered here which he has refused.

I took the muffler to a local muffler shop where there was a old guy that does race car fabrication work and he said the only fix was to have the tail pipes redone with an offset. He also noted the intake pipes were out of line with each other and the flanges were pissed.

I have had no response from the builder for a week now.

What should I do, out the builder here and on Impact Bumpers or just have it altered here and eat the cost. I paid £600 for the muffler.

Cheers
Bill

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Unfortunately, it seems your choices are limited... I'd suggest getting it fitted properly (it does have the look) and move on. I spose you could try selling but you lose $ that way too. I feel your pain though. I bought some FG bumpers that didn't even come close to fitting properly and had to cut one in half and do a whole bunch of other work to make it right and the other into three pieces etc, etc. My option was the same as yours, ship back at my own expense which was way too much! Anything other than stock has the propensity for sucking, lol.

Had custom muffler made which does not fit?????
 

Sounds like the person building the custom muffler doesn't stand behind his work enough to build you a new one...

Oust him so others do not have the same misfortune if he won't make it right.

He should build you a new one or refund you enough to cover the cost of making it correct

Shipping replacement parts to you shouldn't be his problem though, as it appears you picked it up from him.

It looks hot for the car, so I would work with the muffler guy here in Australia. Yes a pain BUT a lot of gain on this. Best of luck

Update.

Took the car in today and had the local muffler guy make new outlet pipes with a dog leg so it would fit.
Had him make the pipes in polished stainless so they looked the same as before.
He did a very nice job of the welding and I am finally pleased with this muffler it does sound amazing and it may have freed up a few horses!

As for the builder I have not heard from him in a week. I will email him with the $150 bill I paid to put his mistakes right and see what he willing to do about this.

For the record I was not expecting him to pay for shipping the muffler back to the UK and then again to here but didn't think I should pay for him to remake some parts and pay postage for them here as well.
The worst part is I told all my mates about this muffler before I left the UK to come home and then had to admit to them it didn't fit and the builder didn't care. At least two of them were thinking of buying one!

Will decide on the outing later!

Cheers
Bill

disappointing to her Bill but it does look very nice Im sure you will love it and move on once its fitted.

Ozracer,

I fitted it today and I do love it. Now!

As for getting over it you are right I am. I'm not sure why I was so upset over this.

More disappointed than anything thought I was dealing with a stand up guy who could make an exhaust sound like a musical instrument!

Cheers

Bill

That looks like an M&K knock-off.
Our mufflers have reinforcement on the inlet pipes and the dual tailpipes sit lower on the muffler body. Ours also is 321 stainless and less expensive than what you now have in that one.

RarlyL8,
This story just gets better and better.
Just when I am finally happy with the fit and sound of my custom GT3 style muffler I find out it may be a poorly made over priced UK knock off.
The only consolation is that it is not not a poorly made over priced chinese knock off. Just kidding!

It certainly looks very similar to the one on your site.
I had never considered the possibility my muffler was a stolen design from someone else.

All joking aside I was at the point where I was going to just get over this and move on and give the builder the benefit of the doubt! Pehaps he has personal issues I am unaware of and just handed me any old muffler he had on the shelf or one he made before he discovered what a jig was. Perhaps he needed the money more than I did and this is paying it forward as some people like to say!
I always try to support small local shops that provide something different as if you don't they will disappear and all that will be left are the multinational global offerings the same the world over that are full of the same chinese mass produced cheap crap!
I will continue to support small independant shops because they give us the choice to have something different.
I thought he was a craftsman with a custom product he designed and took pride in his work.
Call me naive but if you give up trusting and giving people a chance we are all lost.
I admit I did not do the required research before parting with my cash. My bad! I do not blame my mate in England who recomended the builder either as he got what he paid for and was very happy with it!

On the other hand it might be interesting to make the builder aware of this thread and invite his point of view but seeing as he is not responding to me privately I think it unlikely he will respond on here.
I'll have to think about that.
Cheers
Bill

this is my muffler that I fabed up the pipes roll around the valance and about 8 to10" past the bumper I don't have a pic of it on the car because I have the engine out of the car at this time will post next wee when the engine is back inhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1405353731.jpg
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Don't quite understand your post. Are you suggesting Bill Jennings trade with you?

Bill,
If the fabricator continues to shine you on, you can identify his name/shop to the forum. Those on this thread can then use that information as appropriate. Good reputations take time to build, takes much less time to trash.

Perhaps announcing that fact to him when negotiating a repair might have motivated him to reach a mutually-agreed solution.

Another suggestion for long distance purchases of this nature: Ask a fellow Porsche owner in the vicinity for assistance in confirming the component in question. Not sure they would/could confirm the build quality you described, but at least it would have put the builder on notice that it would be "looked at" before shipping many thousand miles away. For example, it would have saved much grief to potential customers of MM and equivalent businesses; in effect, an "Angie's List" or "Yelp" service for Pcar owners.

Sherwood

Sherwood,

I think I will make one more attempt with the builder and send him a link to this thread.

I like your idea on long distance purchases but I picked up the muffler in person from the builder and brought it home in my luggage so I should have checked the intake alignments at least.
However I had no way of checking fitment until I offered it up to the car when I got home.
So I did have the opportunity to check the work done if I had known what to look for and have since learnt more about muffler construction than I ever thought I would so perhaps I should thank the builder for the £600 education on mufflers 101!

I just trusted the builder and assumed I was getting what I had paid for.

What is really starting to annoy me is not just the fitment issues but the lack of care in aligning the intakes and welding the flanges on pissed. I was able to fit the muffler nearly level but not completely due to the non alignment of the intakes. I was told that he had jigs for every different muffler he had made in case he had to make another one. Well if he has the jigs he either doesn't know how to make them accurately in the first place or doesn't know how to use them.

The local muffler fabricator here said he could have made me one of these much better and cheaper as has RarlyL8 with his M&K line. He was pretty scathing about the alignment issues but did rate his welding!

What strikes me as really odd is that the builder was aware of my connections in Pelican and Impact Bumper (i have only a couple of threads on Impact though) but know quite a few Pcar owners there having lived there and owned and tracked a SC there. He doesn't seem to care about any of that.
He might care more if I out him though.

What I do not want to do is publicly embarrass my mate in England who recommended the builder in the first place as he is innocent and just bought a muffler he was proud of and told me where he got it from. He had also offered to go to the builder with his car so the builder could take measurements from his if he agreed to make another. That obviously is not going to happen now.

Cheers
Bill

I and many others here have empathy for service and parts rendered. It seemed you did your best under the circumstances, but it seems the fix isn't catastrophic and manageable at this point. However, do let us know the name of the supplier just as a matter of one person's experience with them. It's then up to them to increase their level of customer support or continue with the status quo.

Best wishes in your future mods.

Sherwood

things like clearance etc i'd be able to brush off as you're fitting an aftermarket muffler onto aftermarket headers on a 30-40 yr old car, so i'd expect a little bit of work..
however; in this pic you can clearly see the tips are not level/aligned! that is not on.

Here is the M&K 2/GT3-S muffler. Note the structural reinforcement on the inlet pipes and the back of the muffler where it rides against the engine console. The twin tailpipes are also lower on the body.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1405384662.jpg


Also notice the end caps are domed not flat. The large 3" tailpipes on this muffler are fitted with baffles to quiet things a bit.


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Rear of muffler is formed to fit the console and reinforced with a plate of 321 stainless.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1405384987.jpg

The 3" tailpipes do ride up into the valance on an early 911 as seen in this shot courtesy a German client.


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Brian,

Your muffler clearly has significant, valuable and desirable differences from the muffler I bought.

I have now fitted my muffler which was impossible to install straight and level due to the 6mm misalignment of the intakes. Using the adjustment you can get from the flanges I got it as level as I could. The fabricator I went to did the best he could without resorting to cutting the intakes off and starting over. I only asked him to redo the tail pipes so not to throw too much more good money after bad. I truly am hoping that refitting the valance will hide most of the muffler body. At least the tail pipes are no longer right against the bumper trying to melt my paint and licence plate holder.


I am very proud of my car but cannot say I am proud to have this muffler on my car.


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I am certain I would be proud to have a M&K system on my car now I have seen the pictures of your work. Looking at the detail in the design including but not limited to reinforced intakes, domed end caps, baffled tail pipes and allowing for the shape of the console in the body of the muffler, seriously you took the trouble to make it fit the console as well?

The lack of attention to design, no reinforcement and poor workmanship convinces me that my muffler will not last very long!

I was on the fence worrying about outing the builder and giving him the benefit of the doubt and was not even going to bother to chase him for a partial refund but seeing what I could have bought for less money has steam coming out of my ears.

I will email the builder one final time making him aware of this thread and the certainty I will post on Impact Bumpers (IB) as well to give him one final chance to make this right. He has a somewhat loyal following on IB though there are certainly threads debating his obvious fitment and quality control issues. I wish I had researched that site before parting with my cash.

I will post any response I get or out him here and on IB.
Cheers
Bill

My post was not meant to disparage you and I apologize if it did. The object was to make sure folks don't think the muffler you posted was an M&K as the basic look is identical.

As for your muffler, it may be possible to very carefully bend the tailpipes and inlet pipes a tweak to help with alignment. Not too much or you may risk denting at the weld joint. Use a steel pipe of similar ID so the force is distributed well. Immobilize the muffler so it does not move at all allowing you full control. This is best done before too many heat cycles as the metal is more elastic at that time. If the inlet alignment is too far off causing an exhaust leak you can cut off the flanges and have a muffler shop weld them up at the correct angle. Be sure the muffler is strapped to the engine very tight as hitting bumps in the road is what causes the inlet pipe welds to fail.

Good looking mufflers, the second one RarlyL8 posted certainly looks better engineered to my novice eyes.

How about a couple of sound clips so that we can hear the differences side by side?

Brian,
Not disparaged just that the design of your muffler in my eyes highlighted the shortcomings in mine and I was shocked at the difference!
My feelings with this purchase have been mixed throughout:
elated when I bought it and managed to get it to fit safely and without penalty in my luggage allowance. ( plus RSR engine bar, engine mounts, muffler gaskets & hardware, 2 clutch cables)
Disapointed when it did not fit.
Annoyed when I came up against a wall trying to deal with the builder.
Determined when I decided to just go and get it fixed locally on my dime.
Surprised to hear it was a knock off.
Encouraged that there are still great small businesses making an excellant product that deserve our support which was what I thought I was doing when I bought this.
Realistic that I don't know it all and can still learn.
Pleased the car is back on the road and sounds great
unhappy that my plan is to hide it as much as possible with the valance!

We all have different reasons of why where and how we spend our discretionary money. I can admit I am proud of my Porsche and feel happy when I can improve it in my eyes.
In the big scheme of things my muffler problem does not rate particularily high. I am surprised how worked up I got about it.

I have emailed the builder once again inviting him to view this thread and join in with this conversation or reply in private before I out him and every google search with his name in it will come up with this thread.


Kach22i,
What is the best way to post a sound clip with a ipad or iphone?
Would the ipad be the better instrument to use?
I really need to get up to Sydney where there are some decent tunnels!

no not at all to much work to give it up I took the top off and re routed pipes inside so the muffler is evenly tuned and the exit pipes roll around the valance and turn up and back so no altering the valance like I said I will post what it looks like after I put the engine back in

I would think that a camera with video would be equal to or even much better than a phone, any phone.

You can get a free account at Photobucket or FlickR (I think) and load a video up to there, then copy the link to here.

Bill,
It sounds like you have a solution that works for you at this point. However, as for local fix solutions, here's an option:

Misaligned inlet flange - Needs tweaking, but brute force means bending/distorting metal elsewhere. Fitting parts under tension can result in metal fatigue at a later date. Here's a vintage tube bending technique:

1) Using a reciprocating saw or equivalent, slice the inlet tube (between flange and muffler) almost completely through such that the kerf (space) created allows the tube to bend (add heat) in the desired direction to move the flange into alignment. Add more slices for additional angular compensation.

2) Tack weld to hold the realigned flange position, remove muffler, then weld-repair the slice(s).

Note that the above operation may slightly affect the position of the muffler or flange. Your misalignment looks relatively minor. BTW, the affected flange (screen left) looks like it's "longer" than the opposite inlet flange (notice the spacing between the level and the muffler body). Thus, a corrective bend should partially correct that as well.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1405454422.jpg

Sherwood

Update,

Builder has read this thread and has finally replied to me asking for pictures of the work I had done.

So with communication on again there is still a chance of a happy ending.

Will let you know.

Ps. Thanks for all the PM's!

Cheers
Bill

Hi All,

The builder Rich at Turbo Thomas in Redditch UK, has not shown any interest in helping me to deal with the problems with this muffler.

He did offer to send me a pair of intake flanges if I paid the postage but this would not have fixed the problem and he offered to make me a new pair of tailpipes with a dog leg offset if I paid him to make them and paid the postage.

He refuses to admit there is anything wrong with the muffler, fitment or quality of his work.

He has asked for pictures of the work I had done which I supplied to him. I decided to only have the tailpipes moved and replaced to make the muffler safe and useable, I left the misaligned intakes alone as I could mount it nearly level.

I sent him a link to this thread and his response was to refer the matter to his solicitor and threatened to sue me for slander!

I will let the pictures of his work speak for themselves and you can decide for yourself if you would want him to make anything for you.



Cheers

Bill

Lol, sue you? He's a funny guy!
How many websites shall we discuss his offerings on?
I can't help but laugh a bit at this... if he had simply stood behind his work, the words here would be in his favour. Why can't people get that? Then he goes as far as making threats? WOW!

There's a reason we offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee on anything you buy from us. Like was posted earlier, it takes years to build a solid reputation and much less time to trash it. So it's that much more important to never leave customers with a desire to trash it! Had this guy simply sent you a new muffler, or your money back, he could have simply marched on. Instead an entire community of Porsche drivers think (or know) his workmanship is off. Not smart. - Matt

I'd do what Sherwood recommends. It makes sense and gets it on the car.


Maybe next time you are in the UK you could call in and say hello ;)

Bill Douglas,

I do appreciate Sherwoods suggestions but I am not really set up to do this work nor have the time.

I don't really want to throw any more money at this as I am already up to $1200 AUD so far.

I do have the muffler fitted on the car after having a local muffler guy remake the tail pipes with a dog leg offset.

I am hoping the valance will hide most of the muffler which is a shame as I think it is a cool look lurking under there.

I work in sales on a commision only basis. I bend over backwards to ensure my clients are happy as I rely on referral and repeat business to survive.

If I stuff up and I do sometimes I try to make sure the client finds out about it from me first and I already have a solution to offer them when I tell them.

What I am trying to say really is that I work hard to earn a good reputation and probably work harder to protect it.

I emailed Rich the link to this thread back when it only had about 500 hits and invited him to join in on this thread or engage me privately.

He declined both.

Rich if you are reading this and I hope you are I have met a lot of great people on this board that help each other out and warn each other if there is trouble ahead.

It is never to late to turn a negative into a positive and I am certain everyone who reads this thread would like to see a positive outcome atthe end of this thread. Is it really that difficult to be a stand up guy?

Cheers
Bill

It's interesting for me to read this thread.

I bought a second hand M&K muffler about 5 years ago - meant to fit a 3.2 engine with 993 Heat Exchangers fitted. I bought it off Richard Bernau on Impact Bumpers. When Richard got it from M&K, it wouldn't fit - he ended up paying a local welder about £500 to cut and shut it to fit. I don't know whether or not Richard took it up with M&K but I do know he paid to get it sorted out

When I got it it did fit, but one end was slightly higher than the other and the tail pipes pointed slightly down (which looked odd but it also meant they scraped the ground on occasion). Eventually I cut and shut the tail pipes to get them level. It now looks OK.

The point I'm making is what was made above - that fitting a non-standard exhaust onto a 30-year old car is not easy to get right with certainty and doing it at distance can bring issues that are not easy to sort. That this can and does happen to other exhaust builders as well. And that comments along the lines of 'string him up' aren't really helpful to anyone and just enflame the situation without knowing both sides of the story - there are always at least two sides.

It's also interesting because I'm taking my car to Turbo Thomas this afternoon for him to do a custom backbox for me - I'm leaving the car with him and I'm excited about what he will produce.

Hi Sladey,
I do appreciate your comments and point of view regarding fitment and the distance involved.
Regarding 30 year old cars there are no appreciable size differences between a early SC and a C3 when both have SSi's.i have owned both.
The fitment differences regarding the fire risk was in inches not a few mm.
Please look at the pictures in this thread as some of the issues are basic alignment and nothing to do with old cars, aftermarket parts or the fire risk!
Seeing as you are going to see Rich this afternoon please ask him if he would allow my mate with the SC that he has made 3 mufflers for or Bertroex on IB who has a C3 with SSi's he can bring along to take measurements to make a new muffler as his jig clearly does not seem to fit.
Both gentlemen have offered to donate their time to help put this right, clearly like Rich and would like to assist.
I will happily pay the postage and return my current muffler to him.
I have read a few posts on IB where Rich seems to have been more than willing to rework mufflers locally there have been issues with. I appreciate my distance is substantial but the head in the sand approach is not working for me.
I am pretty sure Rich will work on your car till he has got it right as that is what I have read on IB.
My main issue is that he promised me an exact copy of my mates muffler which I was sure would fit. That is not what he made! They are the same set up and old cars do not grow or shrink the dimensions remain the same.
I asked Rich outright if he made an exact copy of my mates muffler never did receive a reply to that or other direct questions about out of line intakes or pissed flanges etc.

I would appreciate you talking to him pehaps you can get him to see all,of this in a different light.

You can PM me or post it here or on IB. I have nothing to hide apart from getting a bit emotional about this.
I did not want to name Rich online but after a month of no progress I had had enough and ran out of patience.
The worst thing was he made me a muffler at short notice, I drove 3 hours each way to pick it up met him and his son and liked him and thought he was proud of his work and expected him to stnd behind it.i
I really did not expect to have the problems I have

My experience with Rich has been disapointing but I truly would like to put this behind us , work out a solution and finish the threads on a positive outcome. That would be best for all concerned.
Cheers
Bill.

Send your muffler to your friend and see if it fits his car. If it does, you know where the problem is. If it doesn't, then you know where the problem is....

One of your 993 heat exchangers has had the flanges cut off , rotated and rewelded to fit the 3.2 engine. I would say all bets are off regarding fitment of any kind.


Bill's engine with SSIs on the other hand should be pretty consistent with another engine with SSIs.

I think the key phrase here is "pretty consistent." Pretty much any custom exhaust would be better fit if the car was in the shop designing it. Outside of that you never know what type of fit you'll get. Sometimes great. Others not so much...
- Matt

Sladey is right. I spent £500 getting an M&K to fit - I could fit my finger in the misaligned gaps. This stuff is custom, so you just grin and get it fixed. I figure that whenever you deviate from standard, its basically your own risk and with mufflers, I would always get it fitted on the car if you are not prepared to take the risk. I know that is less than helpful advice if you are sitting in Australia though.

Rich T is a good guy, but I can't comment on the details of your situation. I would suggest you call him rather than email though.