Drove my first 911S (1970) today....should I buy it???? $9500

[Cornpanzer]

OK, So I was way out in the boonies on a service call for my company and stumbled across this little import gargae that had a black 1970 911S sitting outside for sale. The car looks just like Jack Olsens car without the tail. It is a black 70S with restored (paint and anodized) 16" Fuchs. The car seems very clean and straight and runs pretty good. Having never driven an S before I was curious to see if the powerband would live up to its reputation. It Did!!!! I love driving this car. At 5000 rpm it just takes off. Kinda like a 2 stroke dirt bike =) Sooooo......Should I buy it? I am a very experienced VW guy with a street driven beetle that I built myself which runs 12.20s in the 1/4 mile. I have a very good eye for bodywork and repairs and a good understanding of most things mechanical. However, I am a Porsche rookie. Bad things about the car: No radio, missing door pockets, non-matching SC seats, at idle the FI "hunts" quite obviously. The car has great power, but pops when you close the throttle plates. Good things about the car: It seems very straight with no apparant body repairs. There is a little rust in the front pan around the suspension points and under the batteries, but it isnt very bad at all. (I have a pretty good eye for rust since I have been a VW guy for 20 years) It is nothing that I cant repair myself. No other evidence of rust on the floors, fenders or rockers. Doors are very solid and rust free. It has new Yokohama tires, an aluminum trackbar behind the seat and an aftermarket exhaust. Trans is smooth as silk on upshifts and downshifts. Best of all is the price. I can get the car for $9500 cash. It seems like an amazing steal at that price, but the low price also makes me nervous. I almost feel that it is too good to be true =) What do I do. It is about 2 hours from civilization which makes a PPI very unlikly, but they have a lift at the shop and I can do my own compression test. Give me some opinions please. What should I be afraid of? Does the weird idle and backfiring indicate any major problems? The body tag verifies it as an "S" car and I found the original owners manuel under the carpet while poking around. Thanks for all help.

[puzurinshushinak]

Wow, that does sound like a great deal!

Do you have the VIN and engine numbers? Those would help us evaluate the car's authenticity. Also, if you have any pictures, post them, and the board illuminati will give them a good nitpicking.

[Superman]

I never swing at the first pitch. Ever.

[Porsche911NYC]

Strike One!

I couldn't resist.

[Chuck Moreland]

All depends on that rust. If it really is minor, jump.

But when you say rust "around the suspension points", I get nervous.

Even if the rust isn't bad, budget several thousand to sort the car out after you get it home.

[anthony]

At least go look at a few more cars. Being out in the boonies I got a feeling they won't sell this one very quick.

>>>It is about 2 hours from civilization which makes a PPI very unlikly, but they have a lift at the shop and I can do my own compression test. >>>


If you are serious about it would seem that the seller should accomodate a 2 hour drive for a PPI in order to make a sale. If they won't I'd be skeptical.

[Early_S_Man]

Sometimes, the first pitch has home run written on it!

The car sounds neglected, and not a 'great' deal ... but maybe a good 'DIY fixup' car for an experienced VW guy!

The popping on overrun is indicative of a failed Rpm Switch/relay ... easily fixable, but not a serious problem with the MFI, in case that is what you were thinking!

Don't jump on it too fast or seem too eager ... in spite of being in the boonies ... the seller knows the car has many nagging 'issues!' You may be able to get it for $8K - $9k or so if patient! The list of problems will or could cost $5k - $10K, or more to get fixed professionally!

Good luck ... on what seems like a good project car!

[nostatic]

If the numbers match, you could at the very least buy it, clean it up, then flip it on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1848053119

$18K and almost no info? Either the bidders have been getting good email from the buyer, or the market is S-crazy. Than again, why isn't this one moving up?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1849253075

Maybe its too early in the auction.

[Cornpanzer]

The VIN #is 9110301509. Didnt know where to look for the engine #. As far as the rust goes, I am very good at metalwork and as long as it doesnt look any worse once I get it up on a rack I am not really concerned too much about that. Worst case scenario from what I can see is that I may have to put a new front pan in eventually. BTW, does anyone hav the Bruce Anderson price range for a 1970S handy so I can get an idea of where the price is on this thing? Thanks

[nostatic]

BA's numbers for S's are...umm...controversial. The consensus seems to be either his number are too low (in contrast to his numbers for everything else which seem to be high), or his rating of what constitutes "excellent" is soft.

I think Ebay is a pretty good barometer of the market, but the problem is some of the transactions never go through so the data is somewhat corrupt. Judging from recent candidates presented on this board, the price sounds fair as long as it hasn't been wrecked and isn't falling apart.

[puzurinshushinak]

$9609 for poor condition, $10925 for good, $14625 for excellent.

VIN is correct for a '70S coupe. The engine number is on the right side of the cooling fan support -- the curved section at the back of the engine looking at the pulley.

[epbrown]

I like this deal. The thing I like about drivable project cars is that you can get a more expensive car now, without saving or financing, and "pay as you go" at your own pace, doing fixes and upgrades the way you want, and you get to enjoy the car right away.

In this case, you want to make sure that you don't end up spending (too much) more than you would for a good example by the time you're done. This depends on the level you plan to restore the car to. If you're looking for a 10-footer, a car that looks good but isn't so pristine you check the humidity level before opening your garage door, this should be do-able.

First thing is checking the VIN and engine number to confirm it's a genuine and original S, and not an E or something that's been rebadged.

Trusting your evaluation of the rust problem, we can move on to the other issues you state: the interior, exterior, and engine.

I'm not a big fan of clinging to the original radio when better ones are available, so that's no problem, imo. Early seats aren't too expensive unless you insist on the sport seats. I believe a company makes aftermarket door pockets for early cars that are fairly inexpensive and pretty good.

Because the car is post-1968, external trim pieces and such should be fairly easy to find, and aftermarket parts are much more plentiful for the LWB over the SWB cars. If the paint's passable and the wheels are as good as you say, you can postpone a lot of expense.

As for the engine: this is the most serious part. From previous discussions with Wayne and pwd72s, it seems you could spend more for a rebuild than you would pay for the car. And everything I've read indicates tuning an MFI system takes a lot of shop hours as well.

My 2 cents, then, would be that if the car is an original, complete S with a good engine, I'd jump on it! I'd have no problem paying for the bodywork or to refresh the interior at that price, but throw in a rebuild and I'd get shakey.

Emanuel

[FlaCarrera]

My quick reaction, the good news out-weighs the bad. Wave 8800 cash at them and go for it with thought of spending another 3-4K excluding your own work. Do your own leak down first. PPI 2 hr round trip almost out weighs overall price. Worse case scenario, roll it over on Ebay after driving it for a year or more...still cheap P car joy.
Ted in So. Fla
86 Carrera

[curtisaa]

Why speculate..do a comp/leakdown and if the #'s are reasonably good... buy it. Have fun with it for 2-3 years, IT WILL NOT DEPRECIATE, and if you want to do some mods..it will probably enhance the value.

Where can you get a somewhat rustfree S for less than $10,000.00. You sound like you're fairly handy, so I'm sure you'll enjoy it..GOOD LUCK

[Cornpanzer]

Thanks for the info guys. What range should the engine # be in in order to be correct? Also, do any of you have sure fire methods of convincing the wife that a 911 is a neccesity of life? =)

[Early_S_Man]

Engine serial number should appear as *630xxx* where 'xxxx' is in the range 0001 to 2480.

Engine 'Type Number' should be 911/02.

Serial number is on vertical milled surface of the fan housing support. Type number is to the right of fan support on horizontal milled surface.

[911pcars]

If the engine compression is good, the only other engine issue would be the MFI. It could be as minor as Warren suggested or it could be more. EFI systems are expensive to overhaul but tend to be fairly straightforward in use.

I suggest doing some research on what an orig. S has on it, then compare with yours; that way you know what you have. I'm with the others. If it's in DIY shape, go for it. Even if its not an S, if you like it and it looks like a good buy, then buy it.

Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

[HarryD]

Originally posted by Cornpanzer
Thanks for the info guys. What range should the engine # be in in order to be correct? Also, do any of you have sure fire methods of convincing the wife that a 911 is a neccesity of life? =)

Convincing wife.

Thats easy.

Buy now, explain later (it worked for me).

Rust is an insidious thing on pre '76 cars. read the FAQs on these ld car to know where to look. I must have looked at over a dozen rusted victims before I found my rust free 911. Check the wheel wells, rockers, doglegs, around the windows, inside the engine compartment, battery boxes, and suspension pans very carefully with a screwdriver to be sure there isn't a major problem that has been painted over. FWIW, I looked at a professional replacement of the front suspension pan for a 911 I passed on and it cost $2k.

Good luck!

[cegerer]

This sounds like it has potential. But if you're willing to consider something other than an S, you can probably get a much better car for only a little more money. You could find a very clean, relatively unmolested T or E with a rebuilt motor for $10-$14k. The E would have 'similar' performance, as would a T with a hotrod motor. -- Curt

[Cornpanzer]

Curt, thanks for your input. I have always had the similar mindset. I figured that I would end up with a T because the buy-in price is so much better than the S cars. However, this S at $9500 is better than the T's that I have looked at in the same price range. Seeing that you are in MI I imagine that you understand the condition issues and the absolute rarity of these cars here in the midwest a little more than our friends in CA. My research leads me to belive that a nice early 911 is worth about 1000-1500 more here in Ohio than it would be in CA. So, either I step up with a little more $$$ and buy a nice local car (If available) or I can spend the same $$$ flying to Ca and driving the car back. This car though is a little bit of an anomoly. From what I can tell all of the negetives are things I can easily deal with on a DIY gradual basis. The main thing I have to avoid is buying a car with engine problems. If the wife gives me the ok, I will put the car on a rack and also preform a compression test. If I dont get the ok, I will probably mope away the rest of the summer =)