Pro's and Con's of dying leather seats

[William Miller]

I recently purchased some almost perfect seats. They are from a 2000 996 and will go in my 83 SC Cab.
The PO of the seats didn't have them in the car long because he replaces them with sport seats.

So they really are perfect shape except the color. They are full leather "Boxer Red" color. There was a chance that they would go with my Ruby Red exterior , but it clashes.

Option is to dye the seats black to match the rest of the interior.

I've looked up some info. Here is what I learned in a nutshell, but I might not be 100% on all of this:
Older seats (like my 83) may be are surface dyed not vat dyed.
Newer seats may have a different process.
One site advertises that you prep the older type by removing the surface finish (scrubbing/sanding) to get back to the leather. Then it's some more prep then dye. Their new dye is waterbased and is supposed to remain breathable so that it can continued to be conditioned.(Oils may not soak thru the old surface dyes and this leads to drying of the leather and cracking.

So does anyone know if the 2000 996 seats were done the old way or the new way?

If done the new way there is probably less or different prep work.

I sent a e-mail to leather seats.com and of course they are trying to sell me new leather seat covers because they say the dye will wear off over time.

Anyone done this?
Any suggestiosn for links or a search here?
Thanks.


Next, anyone know if the seat supports in my car need to be lowered. I haven't bolted them in but just placing them on the existing seat supports makes them seem high.

These seats are stock for the 2000 996. The slides are manual. the seat raises and lowers maunally. (Theres a dampner/spring under the seat simular to those found on the deck lids, but bigger) The seat backs lean foreward and back with a motor.

Weird how these are so simple. There not real heavy either.
Thanks for any help or ideas!

[Drdogface]

Bill,
Why not check with a shop that does auto upholstery and ask their advice? That's where I'd start if you have not already done that.

I do leather fabrication stuff as a side business/hobby and work with leather dyes al the time. I'd recommend a product called "Feibrings Pro Oil Dye" which is NOT an oil dye really, but a spirit dye. I have color changed a few things with it w/o any problem with the original top finish. It does not dry the leather and allows treatment after drying with conditioners and the like. Of course I'd try it on a spot out of the way first to see how it works.

You can get such at leather supply stores in the area. Look for a Leather Factory store near you or on the web. If you go this route it might take one or two quarts to do the entire job.

As I said before, though, check with an auto uholstery shop first...they likely can do it for you at a reasonable price and/or give good advice.

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

Can't answer the specifics about your 996, but I "dyed" the leather in my '83 SC--not the seats, though, which are cloth Recaros--and learned that what you're doing is really not dying the leather but painting it, or maybe staining it is a better description. In any case, it's a relatively superficial finish, which is why it doesn't work particularly well on high-wear areas like seats. You can actually scrape the color off the leather by abrading it in any way, like with the rivets on jeans. The bigger the difference between the original and new color--I dyed tan to black--the harder it is to do well, and the surface prep is intense and important. It's best done with the leather out of the car, and doing a flat door panel is far easier than doing an intact seat, with all its difficult-to-get-at areas. The short answer is that 1/it's not a magic cure-all, 2/it's difficult to do well, and 3/it's considerably less permanant than some would have you believe.

Stephan

[bitmit]

Bill,
I'm in the process of re-dyeing some interior parts (rear seats/panels/shelf/targa bar) from tan to black and have had good results with Surflex, from colorplus.com, although it looks as though you've already checked their site.
They do an original Porsche black - #917, which looks really nice to my eye. The instructions that come with the product are good, and I also found an article with a bit deeper info. If I can't find it on the web again then I'll scan it and post. I'll repeat FSW - the secret is prep. Do lots, and be super diligent about it. However, my dyed items are not heavy traffic parts like front seats (as Stephan points out) , and the finish is new, so I can't speak for it's longevity.
I do have a question, though. Like you I bought a pair of 996 seats in perfect condition (although mine are full power, and v. heavy), but the seat tracks are different. They're the same width, but without doing some mods to the car, or buying adapters they won't bolt straight in. What's your plan - have you bought/made adapters? Seat track mods? You're the only other person I've come across who's done this, and I'm interested to know what solution you've arrived at.
Regards,
John

[don911]

When I was looking at seats for my car, I talked with an upholstery shop about dyeing. I was told the same thing as Steve W said, it's more like painting than dye. Every seat I've ever seen that has been dyed, the "dye" was flaking or pealing off.

[William Miller]

Thanks everyone and bump to hopefully catch some additional experienced leather workers today!

As John suspected I have been to colorplus.com.
I'm still looking for more info that's probably out there as there are probably mant different products.

Color Plus mentioned that the Surflex is water based, so I would think it may be different than others.

As many have said and as written on their site prep is all the work and it needs to be done right.

I do almost everything myself and ususlly am only limited by my knowledge, ability to obtain supplies and really expensive tools. I'll try anything to be independant of paying a "professional" for the pleasure of them "servicing" me! Very few take real pride in their work and are mostly concerned with seperating me from my $$$.
Nuf of that....

Anyway, the more I reaserch, the more I learn, this reduces the risk and I usually find better and less expensive ways to do things.

I like the thought of asking the pro's what they do. I hope I can find an upholstry guy that will give some time. Maybe there's a simular site for them or a Yahoo group?
Anyway still looking for more info and opinions here.

John, btw, I think you may be ahead of me on the installation. From what I see they might just bolt right up with some new holes drilled.
Mine have a few little tits that stick down. I think they are clipped into the slider some how and can be removed. Unlike my SC seats the seat belts were attached to the seat so I thinh the seats and brackets were/should have been made stronger and have more sheer than the little 6mm bolts that hold mine down. Again, since I will continue to use the original belt anchors I don't think I need those extra tits.

I'll start another thread on installation.
Thanks all!

[Drdogface]

Bill,
Upholstery leather is usually chrome oil tanned and the color is part of that process. I have dyed chrome oit tanned leather before (hand bags and such) with the dye I spoke of earlier and had good success. I have some scrap to play with which I will try today and let you know how it works. It is not as quick and easy as veg tanned leather but worked OK. I'll get back to you later and will take some pics of before and after if that will help. This spirit dye I spoke of, Feibrings Pro Oil dye, is one that penetrates the leather and is not a paint.

[vesnyder]

Try these guys
www.leatherique.com
I had the guy on the phone for more than 30 min - knows his stuff and very helpful.

[ANTONIO]

Of course,any good salesman should know his stuff,good luck,cheers,Antonio.

[hoosierdaddy]

Your new seats and your old seats are both vat dyed . I'm not sure how far back you would have to go back to find surface dyed leather in a Porsche . The last car manufacturer that I know of to use surface dyed leather was Rolls Royce . I have used lacquer based paints with good results but nothing is going to hold very well in a high traffic area .

Jim

[Drdogface]

Bill,
FWIW, I dyed a chunk of Chrome Oil tanned leather today with the Feibrings. Original color was a butterscotch brown and I dyed half of it black. I put on two coats but really didn't need to. It dried in about 1/2 hour. I took a patch of sheep skin and buffed off the surface residue. After that it didn't rub off at all. Coverage was great. Dunno if you've made a decision yet on how to go but this seems to work well. I can email or post pics if you like.

[hoosierdaddy]

Mark
Please email me your results , I'm really interesred in seeing how things turned out . jwmathhews21@juno.com

Thanks
Jim

[William Miller]

Mark, you could e-mail, but it you put it here everyone will learn something! I'm glad to here that these seats were vat dyed.
I think much of the info may be about older leather like the original leather on my seats. Probably even older than that. I would imagine many people just get new covers for newer and more popular cars because they are avalible. I bet it the guys that restore really old cars who do most of the reconditioning/dye.

Any mkore info and other advice is welcome!
Thanks!

[William Miller]

bump for the west coast crowd.
This board is busy today!

[Drdogface]

Bill,
Finally got pic of leather scrap I dyed yesterday. It is a scrap of chrome oil tanned leather I had. As I understand it upholstery leather is done in that process albeit thinner in stock than the stuff I had. It is, in fact, vat dyed as a hyde. I work with leather all the time, mostly veg (oak) tanned, but some of this variety as well. I have made things from colors of leather available and dyed them to a darker color for use in the final product. The dye I ALWAYS use for this is Fiebring's Pro Oil Dye which is NOT an oil base but more like a spirit/solvent type base and penetrates the leather very nicely. The piece I dyed yesterday took about 30 min to dry. I applied a second coat to be sure it got very black and waited another 30 min. After that I rubbed a bit with sheep skin wool to get off a fine powdered residue that always remains...a soft towel would work just as well. It could use more of this to avoid staining clothing and/or you could apply a finish product after dying.

Fiebrings does make other dyes with different bases but what you want is the Pro Oil Dye...this is impt.

Fiebrings is the most used dye in leather work that I know of. It is available in 4oz bottles, quarts and gallons. I would look in the yellow pages where you are for leather supplies retail/wholesale. You can get it from Tandy if there are any stores left. It was bought out by a company called Leather Factory some time ago and Tandy closed most of the stores. You can buy it on line from: www.tandyleather.com or www.leatherfactory.com if you can't find it locally.

Again, a caveat....use it first on a small out of the way section of the seat as a test.

Here's the pic:

[William Miller]

Mark, thanks!
One last question:
As you know the seats are in perfect shape and other than the color need no restoration, conditioning repair. So many of the sites mention a lot of prep work befor applying their product including using conditioners.
I would think the dye you are mentioning would penetrate further if the leather was dry and could absorb more of the dye.

What do you suggest I do as prep.? I would think I would want to clean off anything on the surface and even do what I can to lift out any existing oils. My guess is that laquer thinner would do this ot maybe even acetone. I don't want to put anything on that would prevent the dye from soaking in.

Your thoughts?

[Drdogface]

Bill,
Chrome Oil tanned leather does contain a lot of fats and oils and that's what gives it its soft buttery feel and pliability. Personally I would not use any solvent in an attempt to remove that. IMHO that would be a big mistake. I did no such thing on the scrap I showed you. That spirit dye should penetrate just fine and cover the red with a nice black. I really don't know of the seat mfg. put any other finish on that seat. Please try it on a small out of the way place first.

Best advice I have..

[William Miller]

Ok, since that is out of the way, what prep if any do you recommend?
A. Do Nothing
B. Clean with _______ first.

When I get some more time I'll check out the links and also see if the manf. has a web site.

Thanks!

[Drdogface]

Well, all I'd do is use a clean spong and wipe off any dirt with mild dish soap solution, wipe this off with clean warm damp sponge, wipe dry with towel. That should be good. Good luck and lemme know how you turn out.

[rcm]

I did my seats based on what Leatherque offered. I first oiled the leather and once that was done, wet sanded the seats. There was another chemical I used in the sanding for prepping the leather. These guys have all the goodies you need. I stayed with the original color by the way. I brushed the dye on with a high end paint brush and wet sanded a few times and did extra coats. The seats came out great. They do have a crack filler if your seats are in tougher shape. I found that the prep and sanding really brought the seats back. The color match was perfect, I think. I would have posted a photo but, we are having trouble here.