Installing AC on a '69 911 w/o factory AC
 

I've been thinking of some possible configurations and wanted to see what people thought of the following:

Could the compressor be installed on the driver's side with a custom bracket since my dizzy will be deleted? There would also be extra space from the carb/intake since cyl #1 is further from the belt line. Additionally, could everything be run off a single serpentine belt? I was envisioning something like the Clewett pulleys with a longer belt, idler, and a guide.

Huge task.... best trade for one that has or had A/C.

Outside of the missing two cuts in the smuggler's box, I would say a non/a/c car is fine. The new system can be far better than stock.
The stamps are there for where you need to cut.
Clewett can help you with the pulley after you get creative with the bracket. Often that side will be used for alternate heater controls. the stock hoses will not work with the deck lid condenser, but you can use the driver side rear wheel well front and rear.
Perhaps the most difficult thing to acquire are the plastic evaporator box. Although a couple of vendors make a reproduction that is probably higher quality than the original .
Dangerous subject on this board. PM for more. But there are exceptions. "kuehl" has been very helpful and extremely patient and generous on this site. You can go to griffiths.com and ask for a quote. It is too bad you don't have 240 volts AC on board - the electric compresser from a Toyota would work great up front :)

LOL... don't sell the car, its a classic.

Here is a thread where a chap asked about a bracket and I noted an install
of a compressor in my 73T. If you search around the forum you may find another install like it.

AC compressor install in 73T

Wwest is the weirdest poster. Sees something about AC and is compelled to respond. In this case he did his usual but was even more useless than normal.

Eric, not ever wanting to stop experimentation I almost want to remain silent but.... Why not just use the space that many many Porsches have used before? I. Think the serpentine is a great idea but since we know the compressor fits on the passenger side why reinvent the wheel?

The only difference between an AC car and a nonAC car is that one has an AC System installed and that a couple of holes needed to be drilled to accommodate the installation. There were no physical differences made in the manufacture of the car. It is literally a bolt-on option.

Speak to Mr Keuhl or one of the Texas AC suppliers - they have already solved this for you (except the serpentine) and improved greatly on the original system.

It is hard to argue with the engineers and designers at Porsche. They put the A/C where it is for a reason. No doubt cost was a major factor in their design. It was not a perfect design for sure, and can be improved with the hindsight of many years.

A custom designed bracket with serpentine belt would likely look cool and different. I see the custom hot rod builds and designers do that type of thing all the time.

If your wallet is deep that may be the way to go.

Personally I would call Griffith's and then the other AC distributors. I can tell you with 100% confidence the Griffith's solution will be top quality and it will make lots of cold air for the cabin. His tech support is what we all want from every company and it can't be beat.

guy tried that on a 914-6 a couple yrs ago - the compressor torque on the makeshift bracket eventually ripped out several engine & cam cover studs - expensive experiment

if you need a genuine 911 AC compressor bracket, i have one off an engine i sold

It may be a "classic" but op either wishes to treat it as such or begin enhancements that move it away from that category.

Anyway, when did Porsche begin offering A/C for the 911?

I've always wanted a '57 T-bird but it would be sacrilege to convert it to disc brakes, etc etc,,,

Larry,

That is a valid concern that has been running throught my mind. In the end, it will likely have to go on the passenger side with a standard, two V belt configuration. There is already an asymmetric scallop in the engine console that provides belt clearance to the right. It just seemed crowded with the intake, oil filler/filter, and such all on the same side.

I was hoping to balance the clutter and keep the addition of components as simple as possible with thoughtful integration, not merely bolt-on.

Thanks for all the comments. It's very helpful to bounce ideas off the collective group. The car is a keeper. It needs a lot of work and will be modernized.

Erik thinking about adding ac to my 70T during the restoration. Any idea as to the cost of such a venture? I have already found a under the dash Behr in excellent condition.

ballpark -- $5,000 or less
$2600 plus some wrecking yard parts plus a lot of your labor plus charging at an A/C shop.
Or piece meal components and make up hoses at an A/C shop. Maybe you sae $1200 but add 40 hours. I have heard shops quote $5,000 for a turnkey installation
some items to collect - a/c/ bracket, resister pack, controls, protective bar and cage for front condenser.
You can go to griffiths.com and fill out the quote request form.

I would suggest that you do not add a front condenser. It requires too much cutting (also bar and cage), and is vulnerable to damage. I have a Targa and certainly did not want to decease my structural rigidity any more. Install the dual Kuehl system in your driver's side rear wheel well and a modern one on your deck lid (like factory). It will not require any cutting (other than in the smuggler's box) and will work much better.

Fintstone what cutting needs to be done in the smuggler's box? I also read some where that if you are retro fitting an ac use the dual system in the driver's side rear wheel and deck lid.

I assume you would use an SC or midyear type evaporator. you will need a hole from the evaporator to the under dash vents (evap output air) and one to the passenger floorboard(eval input air).

Here is one from the inside of the car (passenger floorboard). Also note the one at the bottom of the smuggler's box for the evap drain.:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1419785440.jpg

Hey thanks fint now I know exactly what you are talking about. Along with the under dash Behr I also have the triangular piece (I believe a resistor) shown in your picture. Along with those items I have also collected a compressor and ac bracket.

Hi PJ,
It was period correct to add an evaporator box below the ashtray, and a compressor, bracket, condenser, hoses, etc. Behr made some boxes that fit below the dash and look good. You could have decent a/c function, and still a period look to your car. You may find modern vendors. or you may have to buy vintage.
Just an idea.
Also, with many guys deleting their a/c systems, you may find complete setups in the classifieds.
Good luck,
Dave

Dave have been kind of doing that. Just don't want to get to far ahead of myself acquiring pieces. Live in Florida and I'm hoping to get it better than my 78SC which at times struggles. Thanks for the input.

Putting In a Behr Evap Box, easy steps.
For pre- 78 LH drive 911's, 912's and 930's.

Tools: A measuring tape, marker, a few hole saws, right angle drill,
sawall, safety glasses, vacuum cleaner.
Parts: good used complete Behr Evaporator box assembly,
suggested years 1970-1985
Time: 1 to hours tops.

Open front trunk, pull back carpet, open Smugglers Box Well Door,
drill 3/4" hole through bottom of tub for evap box bottom condensation
drain tube.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1419810040.jpg

Drop in Behr Evap Box bottom drain tube into hole, align round air inlet hole
on (picture right) with driver's side air inlet stanchion pipe. Take pencil or marker, insert into
the trapezoid opening and scribe the passenger side bullhead wall.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1419810052.jpg

Inside Smuggler's Box Well, use a 90 degree mika drill with hole saw,
drill all 4 corners of the trapezoid scribe onto the bulkhead.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1419810068.jpg

Inside Passenger area, connect the dots, drawing the 4 sides
of the trapezoid with a marker on the bulkhead, you can flip the plastic
air intake trapezoid over and trace if you like.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1419810087.jpg

Take a Sawsall or your favorite tool and cut the remainder of the trapezoid out.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1419810106.jpg

Place the Behr Evaporator box bottom back in the Smuggler's Box well.
Insert the plastic air intake trapezoid through the new bulkhead hole and
into the Behr box bottom. Pilot drill the four holes to hold it in place.
Insert sheet metal screws. If you wish, you can place a thin strip of insulation
on the back side of the trapezoids flanges (not much air or moisture
will come through if you did a close cut). This vehicle was getting a
Kuehl Variable Fan Speed Controller for the evaporator motor so the fan
speed resistor pack was removed.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1419810120.jpg

If you attached the Behr Knee Pad Panel to the bottom of the dash
(there are a half a dozen existing timmerman nut holders under
the dash to insert 5 mm timmermans; and you will use 5mm screws) you will
see where to drill the clearance hole in the bulkhead for the air tube from
the evaporator box to the Knee Pad Vent Panel
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1419811617.jpg

If you can follow Kuehl's lead, that is ideal. I still don't have an idea of your DIY skills.
good luck,
Dave

Kuehl thanks for taking the time to add the pictures. Makes that part of the project look more attainable. Still in the body work phase. Is there anything I need to know or do to make the routing of the lines easier or maybe more hidden or neater? Dave I would say my DIY skills are a 7 out of 10 and I have a good friend that restores model A's and just finished a beautiful 28 Nash roadster. He makes up the rest of the 10 with equipment and knowledge. That being said I hope I can accomplish and fix any issues.

I also have a 69 911 e that I plan on adding AC to in the future. I have a complete brand new after market AC system sitting on a shelf in the garage. Look forward to your progress.

MattR

PJ,

In essence, the installation of AC in a pre 78 vehicle, that did not have AC, is a mirror of a typical SC or Carrera system, other than the vent system (early models did not have sufficient room in the dash for vents hence the knee pad vent systems): The variation or difference between your LH drive vs. RH models is only the location of the evaporator system and vents; I assume we are discussing LH models naturally but we also support RH models.

My preference for vents is the old 6 louver Behr panel, it has the best distribution, otherwise there is the old VPC 4 louver unit however the evaporator box and its installation is much different. Some 77 models, and 78 forward, all have vent distribution capabilities in the dash, and you would improve upon their side vents, via Kuehl Vents.

Using a Behr evap box allows more choices in evaporator designs, and naturally I am "biased" with the Kuehl evaporator because it can absorb more BTU's from the cockpit, and the pre 86 Behr evap box top allows you to use either the OE Bosch motor or the higher 30% more output Kuehl Hurricane evap motor: moving lots of air is critical in maintaining cockpit comfort in a 911/912/930.

If the engine has a single groove crank pulley you just need to locate a good used 2 groove unit; some pulley's have different markings; i.e. mechanical FI.

To install the compressor mounting brackets you will need, simply, to trim an inch or less strip off the rearward steel surround panel adjacent to the engine "console" (the steel weldment attached to the rear or pulley side of the engine).
I probably have a half a dozen pictures of the install I did in my 73T.
For the pump (compressor) our preference is the Kuehl 507 or a Sanden if you wish. The capacity is perfect for the size of the cockpit and its foot print in the engine bay leaves plenty of room to play in there.

Hose routing is typical of any SC/Carrera or early body with Behr factory air. Behr air has the drier in the LH front fender, whereas VPC systems located the drier in the RH front fender; we prefer typical LH locations. Hoses in the engine bay are very easy to route in and out; you do not need reduced barrier hose, just normal barrier hose diameters. The factory hose path back to front or front to back is under the tub, very simple and acceptable. Some have routed hoses through the rockers however we prefer not to touch their integrity, its all a personal choice naturally.

Condenser capacity is all relative to your climate, vehicle characteristics, and personal needs. For example, a vehicle in northern Oregon does not require what a vehicle in Texas or lower central Florida might need. A black vehicle is more difficult to chill vs. silver or white. One occupant vehicles require less than two occupants. A typical condenser layout for most moderate climates is: engine deck lid and 2 Kuehl units in the LH rear fender; everything simply bolts right in, very non-invasive. If you need more cooling then a front Kuehl unit.
There is another thread going on now discussing installation of 964/993 unit hacked into the LH front fender, if you are keeping the OEM fan/motor in the design you might be OK with just that, some replace the OEM fan/motor with a flat Spal but you will lose CFM's and performance. Again, condenser can be personal choice, however there is a minimum required to do the job.

Control wise; thermostat and fan speed switches in the existing Behr panel. I'd replace the old thermostat, and if you are intending on using the factory fan speed resistor pack I'd inspect the thermal contacts and install a new switch, or you could step up to Kuehl Variable Speed unit. Some have mounted controls in the dash or simple bracket under the dash.

The circuit to power it all is shown here: AC Circuit
You could build your own harness but we usually incorporate a good used SC or Carrera harness; why re-invent the wheel. I'd plan on 45 amps overall, most stock alternators can easily keep up with it.

The discussion assumes common R134a which is available across the States; a handful of countries are attempting to phase it out however it will be here in the US well after you retire the vehicle.

In terms of technical support with Kuehl products purchased through Pelican, we included detailed instructions and you can always contact us directly. If you are considering entertaining a complete Kuehl system, or any Griffiths/Kuehl product PP has not yet added to their catalog, we can support you as well naturally. We have helped quite a few owners install complete systems over the years and I say most are satisfied. The project does take some time, maybe 35-40 hours of love, but if you plan it all out as you are now, its rather easy, fun and quite rewarding. Cost wise....personally I have no issues in investing in a nice vehicle I can drive year round, and in most cases, if you do the job right the investment is recoverable at time of resale; after all wouldn't you prefer to buy a car with a good system.

In terms of skill level to do the work, anyone with common tools, a place to work comfortably on the car, can do the work; if properly rebuilding a complete engine or tranny was a skill level 10, this project is a 5.
There are plenty of knowledgeable peer car owners, whom, "AC wise" have been there done that, here in the forum to support you. And, if you search all the AC threads in the 911 forum, and have a sense of humor when you come upon an "AC Thread", its all here for you.

Wow kuehl thanks so much for the info. A lot to digest. Just a update on my project it is a 70T in really nice condition that I'm trying to keep as close to original with a few exceptions. I want to make it with some conveniences such as the ac, suspension, and engine(3.2)/trans(915). The engine (3.2) already had the compressor on it and I have already fitted the engine/trans with compressor in the car and modified the electrical harness. Ran for a few weeks to eliminate some of the bugs and than stripped the entire car. At this point I'm doing the body work (stripping the paint and looking for rust). Will be keeping all the original parts so that if a future owner wants it all original the parts are there. The Behr unit I have is the 6 vent unit. The compressor is a Nippondenso 10P15C R12. Not sure if that info helps you or if the unit is sufficient for the task at hand or needs to be upgraded. I have a condenser that I believe came from a SC/ Carrera deck lid. I also have a factory fan speed resistor pack. Was going to run the barrier hoses through the rocker panels but I'm going to give that some more thought. Again thanks for your input it has given me a good roadmap.

I seem to remember that the mid 70's cars used a compressor mount that attached with 6mm studs onto the chain case. Do the later style mounts work with the early style heat exchangers? I don't know how much clearance there is for the passenger side air duct hose with the later style AC bracket. Anyone have any pics to share?