The fuel is leaking into the cylinders when I am trying to start engine and when I lift sensor plate. I haven't had a chance to unplug the AFM as I will have to do a partial drop to access it.

With the fuel pressure gauge attached and valve closed pressure builds and holds normally but with valve open it will not build up much pressure and drops most residual pressure quickly when plate lowered. I confirmed that fuel is not leaking from drivers side injectors like I first thought when I open valve on gauge.

I am now thinking cold start injector is leaking but will have to wait until I can lower engine to gain access to it.

Too many misinformation..........
 

It is difficult to asses what you're doing because you are giving us too many misinformation about your tests. If you want to get to the bottom of the problem try to reply or answer questions from the other posters. These are my questions:
a). With the FP running (without the motor running) are you getting fuel to the seven (7) fuel injectors (including CSV)? What's the fuel pressure reading?
b). Is the FD plunger is sitting down on the AFS arm (FP off)?

You can test the CSV in situ. No need to drop the engine just to do this simple test. Remove the CIS rubber boot on top of the throttle body to gain access to the CSV.

Try to find out the answers to these questions and people would be giving you some hints of the root cause/s. You need to test and confirm. Keep it simple.

Tony

sounds like you need to stop lifting the sensor plate. that is NOT how you check fuel pressures.

you dont need to do a partial engine drop to reach the connector. if you feel you need to then remove the fuel pump relay and jumper 30 to 87a to run the pump.

the pressure will be quite low with the valve open. even down south mine would drop to .8bar cold.

to heat up the WUR plug the power into it and turn the key on. with the valve open you should see the pressure rise to around 2.8bar.

Tony,

Do I need to remove the CSV from the throttle body to see if it is spraying or will I be able to see it spraying installed with the boot off?

T77911S I tried jumping the fuel pump by running a wire from 30 to 87a but no luck. Am I doing this with fuse installed or removed? I had the fuse removed

Pop up valve seems good, opens and still attached 😃

Timing seems to be good as well, at least to get it started

Funny post 2 and post 46 ...did not take long the guy is is gone 4 post.

Nope!!!!!
 

VFR750,

Where did you get this information? A good (new) CIS FI ( Bosch 0-437-502-004) is rated to operate between 36 - 52 psi. You could find these data from a factory shop manual or a Bosch CIS reference manual. For me, any fuel injector with 53 psi. or more opening pressure goes to the dumpster.

Tony

My numbers were from memory.

The 36-52 range is comparable to what I said. The injectors should not flow with a low pressure applied.

I also agree, too high of a pressure is also bad.

Ok here are my fuel pressure test results

I will preface this that this is a Euro 1978 911sc and I do not seem to have a thermal valve installed

System pressure with valve closed and wur unplugged 5.9 Bar

Valve open with wur still unplugged pressure drops to 1.3 Bar

Plug wur in and pressure slowly rises to 3.8 Bar

I have also confirmed that none of the cylinder injectors are leaking. I assume I have to remove the CSV to check it?

I am also second guessing myself that I may have the injector lines for cylinder 2 and 3 mixed up. If anyone can post a picture or diagram of the Fuel Distributor showing which injector lines go to which cylinders that would be appreciated.

Thanks
Craig

I will also note that the residual pressure dropped to 0.50bar after 10 min and was at 0 after 20 min

Any advice appreicated

CIS spec.........
 

Craig,

Double check if you have a TV (thermo valve). You need one for your engine (1979) whether you have a RoW or USA MY car. Do you know what WUR do you have? The system fuel pressure is too high and out of spec.

Secondly, you need to pull out the CSV in order to see and inspect it for leak or spray pattern. Without removing it, you won't know the answers.

Lastly, the six (6) injector lines or outlets from FD are interchangeable. But assign the left side ports to cylinders 1-2-3 and the right side ports to cylinders 4-5-6. Technically, they should deliver identical amount of fuel unless something has been tinkered to affect the flow rate. Keep us posted.

Tony

Residual fuel pressure loss.......
 

Craig,

Three (3) most common culprits for residual pressure loss:
1). Defective FA (fuel accumulator).
2). Defective FP check valve.
3). Defective primary pressure relief valve.

You would need a pressure gauge and the correct metric fitting to do the tests.

Tony

My wur has two separate numbers on it I can see without removing it 916 and 252

I have removed csv and it is not leaking. How do I check it for spray pattern?

I am pretty sure I have no thermo valve but it was running well prior with say configuration

I have now confirmed csv is spraying when ignition is cranked.

Not sure what to check next

Outside of the CIS fuel system discussion...

Post a picture of the distributor with the cap off just as you hit TDC (Z1).
The most counterclockwise edge of the rotor should just be lined up with the mark on the distributor case with the distributor adjustment bolt in the center of the adjustment range.

I was lining my rotor up in the center of the mark when I put mine back together and it was doing what you described, I was one tooth off on the dizzy installation and couldn't get the timing to go to 5deg BTDC with the adjusting bolt range..
Just had another '78 rebuilder that contacted me about not being able to get his engine to run do exactly the same thing.

Here you go

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7523/...86262de6_b.jpg

This with the first of the 2 marks lined up with the mark on the fan housing

Look at the right location.......
 

Craig,

The Bosch WUR ID # is located right below the post on top of the WUR. 916 is the casting number and 252 is the serial number. Take a picture of your engine showing the intake cylinder #2 or inspect the WUR. There are two (2) hoses attached to the top of the WUR. One is the fuel line from FD and the other rubber hose goes to TV (thermo valve), in your case, goes to the DV (decel valve) since you have a missing TV (according to your post). Your WUR should be one of these 045/069/089. Which one?

If you want to get your engine to run like it should be, install the needed parts in good working condition. Otherwise, you'll be chasing your tail just get this engine to run. Believe me, there is really nothing difficult to make a CIS engine to run. Just have an open mind and listen to people with proven successes. Everything you need to know could be bench tested by DIYer like you or me. How did you verify that the CSV is not leaking? Was the FP running when you inspect the CSV?

I have not encountered a CIS engine that I could not make to run if you have the following:
Good ignition sparks and correct ignition timing
Control, system and residual fuel, pressure within spec.
No significant vacuum/air leak
FD working and correctly adjusted (good fuel injectors)

All you have to do is check and verify that the above criteria are met. Your engine should start on the first or maybe second attempt. Keep us posted.

Tony

I'm going to jump in here in support of Timmy2's post.

You are in very good hands with regard to the CIS issues and though some of your system is out of spec, you appear to be getting fuel delivery and given how you've done some of the tests, there certainly is enough fuel to get the engine running, if not running smoothly. Ordinarily I am of the mind to complete one area of diagnosis before moving on to another but, in this case, a quick check of the ignition would do no harm. Much of your problem is hinting at ignition rather than fuel delivery. I'd like to see you do a quick check as Timmy2 suggests and report back.

edit: just saw the pic you posted from timmy2's suggestion. Your distributor rotor looks to be centered on the mark, just like Dennis' was when his wouldn't start.

Based on the photo you may be one tooth out as you look centered on the mark. Just for fun, pull the dizzy and turn it back one tooth and re-install it so the leading edge on the rotor is just to the right of the mark that lines up below it in the photo. (Could be lined up perfectly as well)
Make sure the dizzy adjustment bolt is in the center of the adjustment range when it sits like that.

Just to confirm do I want the first (5) or the second (Z1) notch on the pully lined up with the notch on the fan housing?

Here is a photo of mine I just took lined up on the first TDC mark with my timing set at 6 degrees BTDC. (Adjustment bolt is not exactly centered anymore) When the bolt is centered the tip just lines up with the mark.
(When adjusting to advance timing the dizzy base moves clockwise a bit)

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...2030bec547.jpg

Ok so after many adjustments of the distributor and no luck I decided to rotate the crank pulley 360 degrees and then adjust the distributor and rotor back from number 4 to number 1.

It started!! So I assumed at some point I put the distributor in at the wrong rotation of Z1 mark.

I then readjusted all the valves.

Tried to start it and again no luck. Tried minor adjustments to distributor with again no luck.

Rotated crank pulley again 360 to Z1, turned distributor/rotor from 4 to 1 again and it starts!!!

It is now currently back to the way it was to begin with with the exception of my valves being all out of adjustment.

Sooo I am assuming I must have messed up when timing the cams?

Any other thoughts before I pull everything apart again?

I don't understand the valves out of adjustment part. You adjust them or you don't. If you adjusted them the first time, just because you rotate the crank or move your distributor they don't suddenly come out of adjustment. I'm starting to get concerned about your methods.

The valves were adjusted based on the rotor and the Z1 mark. When I changed the rotor from cylinder 4 to cylinder 1 I readjusted the valves based on the rotor pointing to number 1 ignition wire.

But you can't accurately adjust the valves that way. If the rocker is not on the base of the cam lobe, the valve is not adjusted properly.

You should mark your crank pulley at 120 and 240 degrees if not already and use those marks (along with zero). Then where the dizzy points is irrelevant.

I was using the 120 and 240 marks but after rotating the crank 360 and the rotor 180 I thought I needed readjust valves based on the new firing order. I could have this all messed up, it's been a long day :(

You have it all messed up from over thinking...
Either the rocker is on the lobe and compressing the valve spring or it isn't. You can do one side of the car at a time rotating the crank even without the marks if you understand how that works...

If you have the valve lash set on each rocker when it was off cam, you are permanently set no matter what you do with the dizzy.

check timing but first check pop up valve if you have one if it open. http://ehealthca.com/ipad/images/116.gif http://ehealthca.com/hu12uk1.jpg

Ok. I appreciate all the feedback.

I think I need to take a step back and confirm where TDC is for piston #1

Next adjust valves correctly. The instructions say the valve you are adjusting should be loose, meaning it is off the cam lobe? How can I confirm the rocker is on the lobe? Visually? Dial gauge?

My fear is that one of the cams may be 180 degrees out? So when I set the valves as per the instructions in the firing order one sides (4,5,6) is not being set correctly which would require me to re-set the cam timing. I should be able to check this with a dial gauge to confirm when it is coming on cam right?

Thanks again for everyone's patience

double post

The cam is basically an eccentric circle that looks like a raindrop with a fat round bottom and a tapered top. The part that is non circular is the lobe.
When the base (Part that rides the circle) of the rocker arm is on the round part,(Bottom of raindrop) it is off lobe.
When the eccentric part of the cam lobe (Tapered top) is pushing against the bottom of the rocker arm and lifting the base of the rocker so it toggles over and pushes in the valve, it is on lobe.

Conceptually there is a large portion of the cam where the rocker is off the lobe. (Bottom 1/2 of raindrop) Ideally you set the clearance when the rocker arm base is resting on the very bottom of the cam lobe (Raindrop) at the roundest part. (TDC for each piston in it's cylinder)

Visually you can see the cam either pushing against the rocker arm base or not.
If it wiggles in and out and you can use the backside method of measuring the clearance you are off lobe.
Maybe reading up on the theory of the backside method would help you understand the concept?

To confirm your cams are not out of sync, find TDC and set cylinder 1 valve clearances, then rotate the crank 360 and cylinder 4 should be loose and ready to be set.
Then rotate another 360 and check cylinder 1 again. then do the remaining valves as per 101 project instructions.... (120 deg rotation)

I have used a wooden dowel to find TDC on cylinder 1. Installed in the spark plug hole as you rotate the crank it will push the dowel out. When at it's furthest point out mark it and then rotate another 360 as it may come out further depending on if you were on the compression or exhaust stroke. On the compression stroke both cams are off lobe. On the exhaust stroke the exhaust valve is open. you are at TDC when both intake and exhaust valves are closed and the rod is pushed out as far as it goes.

This may help for TDC
Four-stroke engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When at TDC for #1 I understand that both valves for #1 will be loose and ready to be adjusted. Should the Valves for #2 and #3 be loose as well or tight when at TDC for #1

2 and 3 may be partially loose or tight. They are in transition mode for another 120 or 240 degrees either coming on or off lobe.
It really doesn't matter where they are as you should focus on one cylinder at a time for now, setting the clearances as per the firing order for each.
1-6-2-4-3-5
set number 1, rotate crank 120 degrees, set number 6, rotate 120 degrees, set number 2, rotate 120 set number 4, rotate 120 set number 3, rotate 120 set number 5.
Then repeat to double check.

When I do the dowl test it seems like both 1 and 4 are at top dead center at the same time? is this right? I never had the bottom end apart at all and never removed crank

That is true, however 4 is at the top of the exhaust stroke and at least the exhaust valve is open. On some cams the intake valve may be open also as it is the beginning of the intake stroke.

If I am going to redo the cam timing how can I confirm I have the crank at actual TDC for number 1 or does it matter as long as it is at the Z1 mark?

After thinking about this If I pull the cam chain covers I can confirm TDC at #1 with the 930 stamp on end of cam correct?

Start at the beginning and set the crankshaft @ Z1 (compression stroke). The rotor should be pointing towards ignition wire #1 (marker). Both left and right cams should have the '930' or dot @ 12 o'clock position. These are your basic settings to begin with. Rotate cam (1-2-3) 360° (1 full revolution back to Z1 (exhaust stroke). Read your dial indicator for left cam. Now, you are ready for cam (4-5-6). Rotate cam 360° back to Z1 (compression). Read dial indicator for right cam.

Repeat multiple times to make certain that you are getting consistent values. If you are using only a single dial indicator, focus on one cam only and move to the other cam only after you are completely satisfied with your numbers. However, if you are using two (2) dial indicators, you could do 1 & 4 repeatedly.

After setting your cam timing, proceed to do your valve adjustment in 1-6-2-4-3-5 sequence (120°) intervals. Make sure you are @ TDC (Z1) compression when you do valve adjustment for cylinder #1. The rest would follow accordingly. Keep us posted.

Tony

Thanks Tony, I agree that is what I will do next. Unfortunately I won't get much of a chance to work on the car again until Sunday. I will update then.