Need advice on seats and safety harness.

[autobonrun]

During an AutoX event today, the driver side seat on my 79SC ripped again. I had previously repaired and redyed both seats using the Leatherique products. I've decided to bite the bullet and have them refinished in the same leather. I prefer to stay with the OEM look if possible rather than aftermarket, but I'll change them out if I must. I would however like more side bolster. So my questions are:

1) Can the side bolsters on this seat be increased such they are more like sport type or must I stick with the style I have? I assume sport seats were an option in 79.

2) I'd like to replace my factory stock seatbelt with a harness. However, a five point seems to require too much effort for normal street driving. What is a good compromise harness assembly (three or four point) for street driving and for some DE event driving?

Here's what I have now.

[widebody911]

I have a set of deep sport seats that came with my '77. They need to be re-covered; in for a lamb, in for a sheep. They're actually made by Recaro. Nice feel to them, but I went with SRD's

[Mike Feinstein]

Autobonrun,

I believe you can have the best of both worlds. By adding a harness bar (Brey-Krause makes a very nice one...not too expensive), I think you can use a 5 point harness with your stock seats and retain the use of your regular seatbelts for daily driving (by using longer bolts for your seatbelt attachments). I'm thinking of doing the same thing with my car. I'd be interested in hearing from others that have installed harnesses with stock seats (pics would be a real bonus). Still trying to learn more before jumping in.

Thanks,

[autobonrun]

Mike, I had not considered maintaining the stock belts. I like that idea. I also looked up Brey-Krause on the net and they do make a nice product (304ss). Looks like I can get everything including a Simpson harness for less than $450.

This was the last autoX of the year so I should be able to get something in by next spring.

Widebody, the style in your picture is the one I'd like to end up with. There's an upholsterer here in KC that does an excellent job on seats. I'll stop by this week to see if a conversion to the sport style is possible.

[Green 912]

You might want to try the Porsche sport seats first, they will hold you in place better than the set you have. If you want to get a harness system don’t go with 4 point. Many DE programs no longer allow them. (Mine included, I Tech for Potomac PCA) In an impact with a 4-point, the shoulder belts have a bad habit of pulling the lap belt up away from the hips. Then your soft organs instead of your pelvis bone absorb the energy. Even 3 points (stock is 3 point) are better in this regard as the shoulder belt is connected not in the middle of the lap belt but to the connector buckle.

5 and 6-point systems are only better than stock if they are installed correctly and even then there are some things to think of. With your seats you need to either cross the shoulder straps behind the seat or get a strap loop to keep the straps from slipping down off your shoulders during an impact. The stock seats also interfere with the sub belt some but it is still better than a 4-point setup. Another thing to think about is that 5/6 point systems keep you held in a full upright position during a rollover and using them in a car without a roll bar might increase the chance of a head/neck injury. On the other hand a rollover with roof collapse is very unlikely compared to other accidents.

To hold the harness shoulder straps you will need a guide bar, a harness bar or a roll bar. The seat belts are best installed into the tub. Don’t attach them to the seat or rails. I used a B/K harness bar before I went with a roll bar. Save the $ and get just the guide bar, then you attach the shoulder belts to the rear seat belt points. I will be glad to sell the B/K bar if you want but you will need to check if it will fit a Targa.

As was said leave the stock belts installed for everyday driving for ease and to stay legal. Dumb as it sounds, if you are driving in a car using an after market 5 or 6 point (or any system that didn’t come with the car) you can get a ticket for not using seat belts.

[Mike Feinstein]

Good advice. I have a B-K harness bar on it's way to me now...they make one dedicated for the targa. Is there a brand of harness that you recommend, or are they all they all the same (I see a big difference in price between Schroth, and AJUSA for example)? Would a sternum strap be a good idea with stock seats, even though I have a harness bar?

Thanks,

[Green 912]

With stock seats you will need a strap to keep the belts in place. Race seats have holes that help hold the straps and the stock seat shape is poor in regards to holding the shoulder straps. The shape pulls the belts out and away from your shoulders.

I like the Sparco 5 point due to the buckle setup but that is just my opinion. Almost all are good. The type that you have to slip all the strap conector loops onto a central buckel tab and then lock it down is a nusance. You have to look at what you are doing and that is a pain with a helmet on. If you can get the type where all snap independently into the buckel hub, then you can buckel up by feel.

[mm86911]

Mike - you're welcome to check out my setup anytime this week - give me a call. I did alot of planning prior to the purchase.

[HarryD]

Hi,

I have the same seats in my '73 and use the 3 point for ordinary driving and a 4 point Stroth and Stable energies harness bar for AutoX. While the belts peacefully coexist with the 3 pointer, I need to take the bar out so's my kids can use the rear seat. The B-K bar is easier to remove but more expensive.

FWIW-I found that my driving in AutoX vastly improved when I stopped using the steering wheel to hold me in the seat.

[avi8torny]

Food for thought......I went with a six point setup that OG Racing recommended which keeps you from drilling holes for the subbelt. The Brey-Krause harness bar is the ticket...great quality.

[gchappel]

I had the sport seats in my 85 carrera. I did not like the way the sub belt fit- it came up and around the upolstered front of the seat- so during any impact it would have compressed the seat foam- and allowed the lap belts to move up. The shoulder harnesses would tend to spread- until I crossed them behind the seat- and I just didn't feel that safe with that arrangement. It may just be me- but I went with a true race seat for the track, and the 5points work perfectly. The stock seat goes back in for the street- and I use the stock 3point.
gary

[Mike Feinstein]

Gary,

That's an interesting approach. Also cheaper since only one racing seat and harness would be needed. What kind of work is involved with changing out the seats before and after every DE/Auto-X?

Thanks,

[pbs911]

Be sure to check with the DE event you attend if you plan on an instructor driving with you. Some instructors, if not all, will not ride along in a OEM seat with the OEM seat belt when the driver has a racing seat and aftermarket harness. Generally, both the passanger and drivers set up must be the same and mounted correctly.

After my first DE event of having to concentrate on not beeing thrown out of the seat, I went with aftermarket Monaco RS seats that allow the shoulder belts to pass through the seats, an Autopower roll bar and Schroth prof-1 system 6-point harnesses. Now I am planted firmly in the seat, and it is much easier to concentrate on the driving instead of the death grip on the steering wheel when the corner G-s kick in. I retained the OEM 3-point belts for the street.

[don911]

I believe the national PCA guidelines are for equal seating and equal restraints. Our local PCA is starting to enforce this rule. I would check the rules and determine how much $ you want to spend on seats and harnesses. My opinion is that if you plan on a lot of track events, it is money well spent.
My current set up is a Recaro SPG (drivers) and Recaro Pole Position seat (passenger) along with Schroth 6pt harnesses. I also have a guide bar and mount the harnesses to the rear seat belt attach points.

[hobieboy]

Our region also emphasize equal constraint on both as well...

As for mounting harness with harness (guide) bar - don't forget to just loop it around the bar as the bar is designed to "guide" the harness only.

Many have mounted them to the back firewall then loop thru the guide bar. When I had my stock seats, I actually use both - factory for protection & the harness to hold me in place.

[gchappel]

As an instructor with our PCA I agree with equal protection for both passenger and driver- and actually I changed both seats, but only discussed the drivers seat in my earlier post. I went with a recaro srd as the passenger seat- this is a fairly easy seat for a passenger to use- I use the regular 3point belts on the street, and mount the 5points for the track. I use a recaro spd for the drivers seat at the track, and switch it back to the nice leather powered seat for the street. The seat swap is easy- since I used to do it a couple of times a month the bolts were never hard to loosen up- which is often a problem the first time a seat is removed. I would say it would take me 15min to swap the drivers seat- it is only 6 bolts- I had 2 rear bolts per side. I found this worked for me.
Again, I do agree that equal protection is needed on both sides.
Gary