Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > Porsche 911 Technical Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 3
Cv joint cage orientation

Hi I'm trying to check I have assembled my cv joints correctly but want to double check its on an 1989 supersport 3.2
The bearing cage has one side with a flatter service than the other I've put together with the flatter side towards the hub thinner toward the shaft does anyone know if this is correct or even matters as I didn't notice when dismantling.
The inner housing I've put with the raised ring toward the shaft.
Also would you thread lock the bolts when replaced

Last edited by Harrishawker; 02-07-2015 at 10:36 AM..
Old 02-07-2015, 10:25 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
pete3799's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Vermont
Posts: 6,353
Garage
If you had the CV apart make sure you reassemble in the right order or they will bind up. Large area on outer race to small area of inner like pic below.
Makes no difference which way they go on the shaft.
__________________
Pete
79 911SC RoW
"Tornadoes come out of frikkin nowhere. One minute everything is all sunshine and puppies the next thing you know you've got flying cows".- Stomachmonkey
Old 02-07-2015, 01:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Racer
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,663
The outer race of a CV joint has a grove around the outside. That goes toward the outside of the axle assembly.

The star (inner race) has a raised surface on one side. That goes toward the inside. The cage has an edge that is thicker on one side than it is on the other. The thicker edge goes to the outside.
Old 02-07-2015, 01:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by winders View Post
The outer race of a CV joint has a grove around the outside. That goes toward the outside of the axle assembly.

The star (inner race) has a raised surface on one side. That goes toward the inside. The cage has an edge that is thicker on one side than it is on the other. The thicker edge goes to the outside.
Thanks guys I think ive got it right then
the raised part of the inner race to the driveshaft and the thicker end of the cage to the circlip
Old 02-07-2015, 02:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 3
Another quick question there seems to be difference of opinion on torque settings for the six m8 bolts what is the correct setting?
Old 02-07-2015, 02:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Racer
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,663
31 lb-ft for M8 bolts and 60 lb-ft for the M10 bolts.
Old 02-07-2015, 03:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Walt Fricke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 4,952
Winders - that is interesting. I've never paid attention to which way any of this stuff goes, other than putting it together so it works rather than locks up. Of course, when I goof that up I know it right away, and redo it.

I have not bothered with the circle on the outer, nor differences with one end of the inner. I can't say as I have noticed any asymmetry in the cage (what I have noticed is that the brand new ones are looser on the balls than some of my collection of worn old ones were).

Occasionally I will reverse the whole assembly to get the wear to occur in a different spot, if it hasn't grooved anything. But that is different.

So what difference do these small markings and so on actually make, as the parts sure look symmetrical to me.
Old 02-07-2015, 09:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Walt Fricke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 4,952
Also, I'd not recommend any Loctite or the like on the bolt threads - it is easy enough to strip the Allen removing them as it is, and you really don't want to be fussing with heat or other expedients to remove the bolts. As long as you retorque them after some use (since they can loosen as the gasket - if you use one - compresses over time) you will be OK.
Old 02-07-2015, 09:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Racer
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt Fricke View Post
Winders - that is interesting. I've never paid attention to which way any of this stuff goes, other than putting it together so it works rather than locks up. Of course, when I goof that up I know it right away, and redo it.

I have not bothered with the circle on the outer, nor differences with one end of the inner. I can't say as I have noticed any asymmetry in the cage (what I have noticed is that the brand new ones are looser on the balls than some of my collection of worn old ones were).

Occasionally I will reverse the whole assembly to get the wear to occur in a different spot, if it hasn't grooved anything. But that is different.

So what difference do these small markings and so on actually make, as the parts sure look symmetrical to me.
Walt,

I am not sure what difference it makes, but look here:

CV Assembly

And here:

Servicing CV Joints on an Off-Road Car - Sand Sports Magazine

Scott
Old 02-08-2015, 12:17 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Walt Fricke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 4,952
Interesting websites, and worth reading. They are for off roaders, with their extra suspension travel, so some of what counts there doesn't really translate for our uses.

Our axles have a shoulder where the splines end, and a thick Bellville type washer goes between the shoulder and the CV. These sites are talking about 930 (or 934/5) CVs and, I suppose, axles. They are discussing the 10mm bolts. They don't show shoulders on the axles. This isn't a bad thing - for off road use you want a longer splined axle and no shoulder, so the axle can float and better deal with the large angle changes. Works fine for street/track use also, but not necessary.

I see one site says use red Loctite on a few bolts, whereas the other says you'll have a heck of a time removing red Loctited bolts, so use blue. Perhaps off road use is tougher in this regard, but for street/track I have not had issues with no Loctite, and I don't go overboard keeping grease off the threads. Proper torque, plus retorquing after some use, works.

They do stress the groove for the outside piece, and the raised end for the inside or star piece. Other than for a reference if you want, I see nothing which makes the way you install the outside piece matter.

I looked through my collection of used CVs (six or so) and used CV parts ( 3 cages, two center stars, and 8 or so ball bearings). Only one of the star pieces had the raised edge. All, however, had about an eighth of an inch of the internal splines milled off to about half the spline depth. This lined up with the one raised end center race. All the rest had the milling, but no raised edge. And the raised edge is at the same height as the non-raised edged ones.



My take: it is the internal milling which counts, although just a little bit. It must be there to make getting the CV started on the axle splines easier. GKN must have gotten tired of the extra machining needed to cut away some of the center race to create the raised center, so they stopped doing that. So don't be surprised if you don't find a raised end on your replacement CVs.

If a guy cares, he will look for the relieved inner splines, and put that toward the axle. As for me, if I can get the CV to go on the axle, I'm not going to care which way is which unless I have spreading out the wear in mind. Though I think I have usually put them on with this relieved part in, even if I don't bother about the groove in the outer race.

Lastly, there is the question about the thick and the thin side of the cage. I measured, and while I didn't use a nice height measurer on a granite stand, and accounting for the fact that one side of what you are measuring is beveled/sloped, it looks like the difference is between 15 and 20 thousandths. Not much. From one of the websites Winders listed I see that the reason to put thin side in is that this will prevent the protruding ends of the splines of the axle from contacting the outer race at extreme suspension angles, and thus damaging the splines and making R&R harder in the future. This I hadn't known. Knowing it, I am not sure I will measure in the future, though. We don't get our rear suspensions to full droop on the street or track absent some kind of accident.
But working with the orientation of these cages might be a way to move the wear spot on the races a little, which is useful when rebuilding.

These cages are no longer of the quality they once were. With a new cage you should be able to snap the balls in, and they would stay put, at least against gravity, when rebuilding. The last couple of years I have found that brand new CVs have loose cages, and the balls don't snap in. How important this is I don't know, but don't fret overly much because there isn't anything you can do about it short of expensive custom work or sourcing or the like.

I did pick up one other thing from these websites: clocking the CVs. The idea is to install one, and then while installing the second to have a wide groove end on one side (the things you are careful to observe when putting the CV back together, so wide inner faces narrow outer, etc) line up with its counterpart narrow groove end on the other side. It appears some think this makes for a better relationship of the ends when driving at large axle angles. Not sure how that would work, though like most of this stuff it wouldn't be hard to do.
Old 02-08-2015, 01:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Walt Fricke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 4,952
Here is the nice picture from one of these sites:



I'm pretty sure that is an aftermarket axle.

One site stresses keeping the axle rotation the same. Sort of like the advice we get for torsion bars - reinstall so they are stressed the same way they have always been stressed, because reversing the stresses is a bad thing.

I thought that ought to apply to axles, and marked the direction of rotation with tape on them. Then, some 10 or so years ago, Porsche put out a technical service bulletin for those racing their Cup cars, advising that the rotation of axles be changed when through half of the races for that season. I guess that axles see force reversals more than torsion bars do. I checked with some engineer types, and stopped worrying about which way my axles go back in. But I follow the usual advice with the torsion bars.

These sites stress cleaning out the bolt passages, threads on the transmission flanges, and the bolt threads. I've given up worrying about this, because to me the work involved (tape over the bolt holes, a sequence for greasing the CV) isn't worth it. Bolts stay put because they are stretched appropriately. Some grease on threads means they will be stretched a bit more than if there is no grease for the same torque wrench setting. I'd rather have more, and it won't be enough more to cause them to exceed their elastic limit. What I work to keep grease off of are the mating surfaces of the CV and the flange. It is the friction between these two created by the tension in the bolts which prevents the CV from moving even a micron against the transmission flange, and I don't want to reduce that friction.

Of course, if you want a thread locker to work, everything has to be clean.
Old 02-08-2015, 01:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Racer
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,663
Walt,

While it may not "translate", it doesn't mean there isn't a correct way to install these parts.

Here is a brand new CV joint from GKN (911-332-923-01):



It is assembled just as the off road web sites say it should be. Are you suggesting that for street and road racing purposes, these "rules" are arbitrary?

Also, notice in the photo that the star (inner race) has the raised center on the one side. From what I recall, the CV joint/axle setups that use the "Bellville-type washer" don't have the raised center on the star. The axles in my race car do not have the washers.

Scott
Old 02-08-2015, 04:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Walt Fricke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 4,952
Scott

Those are 10mm bolt holes? All my CVs are the 8mm style. Though I don't know why that would make a difference as to raised vs not raised. Lobro/GKN just didn't change their practice for those?

Do your race car axles have a shoulder to which the CV butts? But the presence or absence of the thick washer on the axle side doesn't explain the purpose of cutting the inner race down to create the appearance of a raised center, because that part faces the circlip side, away from the axle. And the total thickness of the two styles (based on the one I had to compare with six or so non-raised ones) is the same. The inner races on the one are just a little bit shorter on that side because of the additional machining.

I can see no possible interference issues with which way the center race is installed. The circlip doesn't extend beyond the raised area? So cutting away the perimeter isn't going to be some kind of protection of the circlip's stability?

Identifying the relieved inside splines is all I can see as to a purpose. Of course, I don't claim to be all seeing. But I do like to understand why things are supposed to be this way or that.

So far, no one has shown some kind of asymmetry which requires the outer race to be installed one way or the other. Doesn't mean there isn't one, but it must be pretty subtle if it is there. The groove would allow you to reassemble exactly as it was before without having to make some mark of your own. Or to reassemble the opposite way, if spreading wear was your goal.

The cage asymmetry is subtle, but real. Don't front wheel drives put CVs through greater angles than a 911's rear sees other than in off road use with extended suspension travel. Craig Watkins explained that the reason the hollow axles Smart Racing once sold had longer splined areas and no inner shoulders was based on off road racing experience in the Baja, where allowing the axle to slide some was beneficial due to the increased suspension travel. Anyway, since I have seen no evidence of wear on the outsides of my cages, despite my not having paid attention to thin vs thick (since I didn't know about it) when reassembling the CVs on my two track cars, I don't think it matters. The CVs go bad when there is grooving of the races. I used to keep some of these as a short of show and tell when someone wanted to know when the parts were worn out (if you can feel a groove, it is worn out - the groove will just get a lot larger a lot faster because it is at least close to wearing through the hardened surface). I know sometimes guys find broken cages as well. Have I just been lucky?

In some cases, proper may be in the eye of the beholder. Grady viewed proper as being exactly as the factory did it. You should have the two hole thick washers, and the proper serrated washers. I don't use either. Yes, the boot holder sheet metal will thin out under the bolt head, but I've yet to have a bolt get loose on that account, nor the metal get so thin that the holder gets loose and grease gets out or dust in. Some of these boot holders come with a thick circular piece inside the sheet metal (perhaps this is when Porsche stopped using the two hole washers on the outside?). I pry these out. I use the 12 point Allens (much more resistant to stripping) and make sure the length is right. Porsche used the 12 points at one time, then went to the more common hex. Cost?

If there is a point to this, I think it would be that if a guy had failed to note these details of CV reassembly, he ought not to sweat it. It is not like putting rod caps on backward, or pistons wrong side up.
Old 02-10-2015, 08:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Racer
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,663
Yes, my axles have the shoulder so they are not "full floating" axles which is what you describe Craig Watkins selling via Smart Racing.

Not that you can see the shoulder, but here is what I use for axles in my race car:



I am of the opinion that you should assembly the CV joints properly, even if it doesn't necessarily make a huge difference....or even a small one.

Scott
Old 02-10-2015, 09:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Walt Fricke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 4,952
Ah - the 10mm bolt Carrera 3.2 (and later?) CV/axles, which can be purchased as an assembly and have the nice end cap which makes removing and reinstalling he transmission or trailing arm or just the axle much less messy. And isn't, alas, available for the 8mm bolt setups.
Old 02-10-2015, 09:48 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Racer
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,663
If anyone here ever purchases such an axle assembly, before installing them, I highly recommend removing the supplied "grease" and replacing it with a quality grease. When I pulled the axles apart after 20 hours of track use, the grease flowed out like oil. Not thick oil either.

That explains why these axles were spraying grease all over the engine compartment from day 1 even after I zip-tied the boot small ends. It also explains why I had to replace 3 of the 4 CV joints.
Old 02-10-2015, 10:39 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 21
I will add two points--
1. Stage 8 locking bolts

2. for track use ---stabilize your transmission with tie rod bars from chassis to the bottom and sides of tranny case
Old 02-10-2015, 12:59 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Racer
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonecrusher944 View Post
I will add two points--
1. Stage 8 locking bolts

2. for track use ---stabilize your transmission with tie rod bars from chassis to the bottom and sides of tranny case
1. Not necessary......especially with the 10mm bolts.

2. Huh? How do you attach these tie rod bars to the transaxle?
Old 02-10-2015, 01:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
devalued member
 
juanbenae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mumbai West, Silicon Valley Ca
Posts: 9,967
Garage
I have a box of old CV parts I fiddle around with from time to time. like if I've had a few drinks,, before I decide to drive to the 711 or ride my bike I might pull that ol box out to see if I can assemble a CV on the kitchen table.. if I can do it in under two minutes im in the civic, if anything hits the floor or I take longer than three minutes I ride the bike. this sobriety check is done with a box of like 5.5 complete CV's disassembled, not just a complete single unit apart to start.

maybe this might be a good paddock drinking game? a betting action sport? see which racer can assemble a 911 CV fastest!! you'll find yir DIY'er pretty quick I recon;; im comin to your trailer 1st in march #3, be practiced up...
__________________
75S slick-lid webered, early n spicy 3.oL hotrod wanna be
07.5 2500HD GM Diesel 4x/93 tuff-gong 4.oL YJ Wrangler
08 DRZ400SM+FCR Mikuni
78SC PRC Spec911(sold 12/15) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7I6HCCKrVQ
Old 02-10-2015, 04:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Racer
 
winders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Martin, CA
Posts: 3,663
Toby,

You can come to my trailer, but I will be somewhere in the garages.

I hate CV joints!! I now know more about them than I want to know! Red Line CV-2 is messy but better than the junk you get with the CV joint kits. Who cares how fast you or I can put them together? It's not like I want a job on the assembly line with GKN!

Now with this DIY'er stuff, what is up with that? I do all the work on my car except for engine, transaxle, and alignment. When engine work needs to be done, I pull the engine from the car, remove the induction setup and fan, and hand Mat the long block. I remove the transaxle and take it to Mat too.

Are you still upset that I was smart enough to have Mat build my car using his decades of experience versus trying to do it myself???
__________________
Scott Winders
PRC GTL #3

Last edited by winders; 02-10-2015 at 08:29 PM..
Old 02-10-2015, 05:00 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:46 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.