While we're on the subject of 'innovative thinking', this is a great resource - over 600 articles to read! -- Curt

http://www.winstonbrill.com/bril001/html/article_index/articles1_50.html

"And experimental Dupont Kevlar sharkskin too, I suppose?"

Actually, we were posting simultaneously at the time...I'm game on the kevlar sharkskin...especially if it can have an aerospace connection...can I assume from you picture that it is used in wings? Actually (in my ignorance) I assumed all planes were made out of aluminum...and if I can *wear* the kevlar sharkskin in a suit or shoes (to match my car), then that would provide additional coolness factors...

"Ti is great because it is strong, light, and deals with flex well (bend, not break)."

Ah, so for body panels, Ti may outperform aluminum. Interesting. I wonder if it can be purchased in sheets? And I also wonder how it compares to kevlar...I am finding this all way too interesting...

Janus,
nostatic is right, it depends on the application.
All the materials mentioned above (including chocolade) can be used in your car. If a material has an advantage, such as light weight, using it will also have a downside.
You have to ask yourself if you are willing to accept the negative sides in order to achive the positive effects of using that particular material for that particular part. :confused:

Carbon fiber is brittle partly because it has its strength only in the direction of the fibers. Because of that it can shatter on impact, but also be extremely strong, depending on where it is subjected to stress. While steel will give and bend when it reaches the point of which it can no longer handle a load, carbon fiber will snap right off. Because of the tendency to crack when hit, you should not use carbon fiber for parts that are likely to get hit, such as the front spoiler. Making carbon the right way is expensive, and it cannot be repaired like fiberglass.

Kevlar, on the other hand would be a better choice for a front spoiler, it is more impact resistant. If you use the right fabric and the right thickness it will even be bulletproof!

The best advise is that you do a research on every material you are considering, then figure out which material is better to use for the specific part you are replacing. You could use chocolate for a small trim panel on the dashboard and get away with it (during a cold winter night). Using chocolate pistons in your engine would be a bad idea. :D

Have fun! :)

"You could use chocolate for a small trim panel on the dashboard and get away with it (during a cold winter night)."

Well, I wasn't going to post this pic but...you had to go and mention the dashboard...:p

I'd try to locate some Unobtanium. ;)

Or if you can't find any go with Kevlar. Then I would not paint the car. Rust would not be an issue and no paint would remove additional weight.

Shark skin 'texturing' is really cutting edge stuff right now. It's being experimented with in the aircraft industry. I'm surprised that the F1 teams have not tried this?! That framework diagram is from the famous Gossamer Albatross human-powered aircraft! -- Curt

Janus,

Is that your other car?
I hope your A/C system is working :D

Was going to post this link:
http://www.shopmaninc.com/carbonpage.html
They sell hybrids too, Kevlar reinforced carbon fiber.
I'm thinking of using Kevlar to replace the skid plate under the steering rack. I'll probably reinforce it with an aluminium plate (with holes drilled in it). Rally cars use Kevlar for skidplates and on the outside of the sills to protect them from flying rocks.

One of my many winter projects was to make an aluminium gas pedal. Now I'm thinking:
Why not use titanium?
When someone comments the nice "aluminium" pedal, I could give them my best "are you crazy?" look and mumble something about aluminium being too heavy, with no further explanation. :D

How expensive is titanium?
How hard to shape with common hand tools? :confused:

No, no, no. You want an adamantium/vibranium alloy similar to Cap's shield - indestructible and absorbs impact.

Personally, I'd stick with what MBZ, Aston-Martin and RR/B have used for decades - old tried-and-true aluminum for the door-skins, hood and boot-lid.

Emanuel

Kevlar will give the best toughness to weight. . .though S-glass is very close. There are a lot of cheesie glass builds out there using the cheapest glass available. S-glass is not one of these.
Lumping all glass fibers in to one catagory is like saying all Porsches are the same.
If you're experimenting with making parts, you wont see a difference in the strength between S-glass and kevlar. . you'll just see the price difference.
also here is a good thread about composites.

On metal panels; less dense materials can have a geometric advantage by being thicker (beam theory stuff).
For example, Aluminum is much softer, and lighter than steel, about 2x. But, because just a little more thickness adds a lot more bending stiffness to a panel, having an Aluminum panel say 40% thicker, you will have the same bending stiffness as the steel. . . .and still come out much lighter.

i would make mine out of credit cards........
just think...........the amount of women you would end up with would be astronomical:D

or gummi bears........that could deffinately survive an impact

It would take a while to accumulate enough, but Carbon 60 seems to be very versatile.

Don't mean to intrude here on the 911 board, but somehow my computer dumps me out here from cyber-wherever, and sometimes I take a look at the thread topics before I jump to the 914 bbs.

Ed

Hey Janus,

Can I drive up to Worcester and see your carbon kevlar Ti chocolate sharkskin body panels
in progress? I'll bring the Bondo.

Are you going to the Vic Elford talk tomorrow night?

And having just bought almost 30 yards of S-glass a couple days ago, I can attest to that!

I've learned a lot about fiberglass, carbon fiber, and carbon-kevlar hybrids since I started having the heater bypasses made. Like the fact that carbon fiber is available in some cool colors other than black!

The fabricator has been patient with me and showingme some of the tricks of part molding.

I'm thinking of having a couple tubes made in carbon-kevlar for the sheer bling-factor and puttin' 'em ebay.

Along similar lines, I ordered the parts to convert my welder so I can weld aluminum; they came in today, but I was too busy shaping surfboards to go downtown and pick them up.

nice....that's going to come in handy:cool:

I'm embarassed to admit this, but my 911's gas pedal is Titanium. I was talking to someone in the paddock one day and I notice his gas pedal (or maybe it was the other way around). I asked him about it. He said he made it - out of Ti. He had some lying around the shop. I had him make me one.
Why am I embarrassed about having a Ti accelerator? Because Ti has no advantage in this application, it's not even lighter than aluminum. But hey, if my floorboards hit a zillion degrees my pedal won't melt. :rolleyes: I hate being lumped in with the ignorant who use exotic materials inappropriately. You know the kind, they replace their steel bolts with stainless steel (weaker) or Ti (notch sensitive, think glass). Sorry, I guess I'm starting to rant. :D Here comes the nurse with my Jello and antipsychotics. Gotta go..
-Chris

[quote] Why am I embarrassed about having a Ti accelerator? Because Ti has no advantage in this application, it's not even lighter than aluminum. But hey, if my floorboards hit a zillion degrees my pedal won't melt. [quote]

Thanks, Chris, until now I've allways thought that titanium is lighter than aluminium. Well, actually it is 60% heavier.
Guess I'll have to go with the original plan and use aluminium.

A web search gave me the following facts:
Titanium is a strong, non-corrosive aluminum-like metal.
Very high melting point, 1800 degrees C.
Titanium is as strong as steel, but 45% lighter. It is 60% heavier than aluminum, but twice as strong.
Barely used until the cold war and the space race created a demand for it. Titanium alloys are now principally used for aircraft and missiles, although applications in consumer products such as mountain bikes are becoming more common.

Here is a good link to more info on titanium:
http://titaniumera.com/facts.html

Despite my car's recent...ahem..."unplanned combustion event", I am still working on the chocolate/kevlar/shark skin 911 body panel research project. And I can present some progress. Chris "Ti Pedal Ricer Boy" Bennet has kindly provided the following excellent link on DIY carbon fiber fabrication...

http://www.bryanf.com/info/carbon.htm

I also kept searching the web on Ti and found that it is used in golf clubs, knives, bicycles, and...

...wait for it...

BATTLEBOTS !!

Yes, I found lots of websites dedicated to Ti fabrication for battelbots. And through this subculture, I found the following Ti supplier...

http://www.titaniumjoe.com

And here is a source for Ti exhaust components for DIY fabricators...

http://www.burnsstainless.com/TitaniumTube/titaniumtube.html

I still can't figure out how one works with Ti. The battlebot folks seem to feel it is a lot like working with hardened steel.

I also searched the shark skin angle and I found very little...but most sites refer to a "vacuum" being required to create the tiny little surface structures...I'm still game to try it but no promises that I can get it to work in my basement...

That is where it stands so far. I have ordered a pile of books on composites, auto body fabrication, and metallurgy. I am also going to order a book on making kevlar canoes.

"Can I drive up to Worcester and see your carbon kevlar Ti chocolate sharkskin body panels in progress? I'll bring the Bondo."

Sure, why not? In the unlikely event I manage to fabricate anything that doesn't suck massively, I'll gladly share the love. Sorry about the Vic Elford thing...I had plans all weekend...

"Kevlar will give the best toughness to weight. . .though S-glass is very close."

I read the thread but I still don't know what S-Glass is. Like a form of fiberglass?

"I'm thinking of having a couple tubes made in carbon-kevlar for the sheer bling-factor and puttin' 'em ebay."

There's a lot of bling to be had with that stuff. I searched the various exotic car manufacturers and it seems they are all doing some sort of hybrid (instead of pure carbon fiber or pure kevlar). Carbon/kevlar composites seem to be the wave of the present.

make it out of hemp...like Cheech and Chong :D :D

The search for the ultimate lightweight porsche continues...the books on composite fabrication have arrived and various exotic materials are on order including carbon fiber and carbon/kevlar fabrics for experimentation. Stay tuned.

Basic research also continues and has brought me to the r/c subculture which makes their cars out of a surprising assortment of exotic materials including titanium and LEXAN....so I have to ask the question: Can a full-sized Porsche be made out of lexan? I know it is possible to buy lexan windows. But it seems this stuff is super strong and light weight. They *claim* it is virtually indestructible. So can it be used for body panels and structural components? And can it be molded? Obviously the r/c manufacturers use molds...but I have not been able to find the resin for sale anywhere.

So, my fellow Pelicanheads...how 'bout a see-through porsche made of lexan? Possible? Ill-advised?