F1?
 

Hell, I thought they were going to race SUV's

I'm in agreement with Jerry, err, Terry Springer :) on his tech. rules changes (sorry, bad joke). In addition, with the disparity between racing teams as it is now, I would suggest an inverted start. To discourage sandbagging, this would only take place if the slowest qualifier was X seconds or X% slower than the fastest guy. At least we'd get to see some interesting racing and passes, for the first few laps anyway. We could even entice Andrea DeCesares out of retirement to block.

Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

Terry, I think you missed the mark. ;)
I don't remember whether it was CART or IRL that had a problem with Penske but when he took his CART cars to run at Indy the cars were missing their familar MARLBORO logos. This was also the reported problem of why Penske switched to IRL. Had something to do with only being allowed to run in one series with tobacco advertising.
Had somewhat the same effect on woman's tennis with Virginia Slim's.

Don,

You are correct, let me include the Socialist "wanna-be" Govt. of the USA in as the root of this problem.

Pretty soon this nonsense is going to move on to "Big Alcohol" and "Big Fat" as the Govt. extends restrictions and prohibitions to the alcohol and fast food industries. All in the effort to protect us from evil right? No chance it could just be that all the lawyers in Washington just want to setup more massive lawsuits to get "fat" on.....

Sorry done with the soap box :) I hear the Jerry Springer thing at least 10 times a week. Usually people ask if I am related to Jerry Springer..... and I usually tell them YES. He is my father in law.... They smile and say REALLY apparently being very impressed.

Terry

Terry - I don't see anyone blaming Big Tobacco. The teams and organizers made the choice to remove Spa even though it's a gret circuit. They chose Big Tobacco dollars instead of better racing. IMHO this places the blame at the door of the teams and the organizers.

Do I support banning tobacco advertising in general - Yes, but that's a different discussion.




Doug

Puh-leese F-1 is sooooooo boring. Its just awful. Drag Racing is more interesting (BTW that's no slight to the drag racing guys - I think drag racing is cool -- watching it right now--, but more a poke at F-1 snobs). I am a road race, pass under braking kind of guy, but I'd rather watch NASCAR than that pathetic excuse for a parade (err... I mean racing series.)

F-1 should be retired. Its an idea who's time has come and gone. Just like the unlimited CAN-AM.

F-1 proponents always talk about the technology and all that nonsense as being the beauty of the series. But in reality, the advanced state of automotive technology is now the enemy of F-1 racing - as well as prototype racing. F-1 USED to be interesting because of the technology - as did prototype. But that was when there were big technological hurdles to face e.g., how do I build brakes that don't fade to nothing, hey... aerodynamics!, advances in tire technology, where different approaches made big differences and interesting racing.

Today, what use are technological advances? Its way too easy to make the cars too fast to be safe, brakes too strong for the human body, the technological differences are so minute, you have to spend astronomical amounts of money to get the last 1000th of a second from the car - all so they can parade around the track with no passing. The question is do you want interesting racing, or an interesting technological excercise?

I would argue that the technological exercise isn't that interesting any more (its way beyond the scope of most people's understanding, and it hasn't any really good applicable use in modern vehicles). If you want an interesting technological exercise you should watch the solar challenge. If you want to watch interesting racing, you can skip F-1.

I really don't think you can fix F-1.. technology is just too much and too far ahead of racing to make the racing based on leading edge of technology interesting. Oh, and by the way, today's F-1's already AREN'T the leading edge of technology anyway... if you didn't have the limiting rules of today's series the teams could build much faster, more brutal cars than those that compete today.

And THAT, my friends is where F-1 makes its critical mistake. Think about it... if you are going to start limiting the abilities of the constructors, then why not do it right, and limit the cars back to the point where the racing is fun to watch, where the drivers can actually pass one another, and where more than one or two teams can be competitive. That's what NASCAR does, and you cannot argue that the racing in that series isn't closer, more exciting and fun to watch from a competitive standpoint.

And no wonder. I kept looking around for some hint that you were kidding. Schuey in a stock car? Let me quote someone else: "Put down the crack pipe, son" --Jack Olsen.

You're just bitter because you have to get up so damn early out on the left coast to see the races and you probably don't know how to program your VCR. :D

Seriously, you obviously don't follow F1 or you'd never make a statement like that. Sure, some of the races are processional--but most are very dynamic, especially if you'll look back in the pack a bit.

F1 is only boring to those who are looking to be constantly entertained--that's what the IRL is for (bleeech). If you had any idea what it takes to drive an F1 car at speed, or to design and engine that can actually pull from 8K up to 18K, then maybe you'd see past the surface and realize how much is really going on. Amazing drivers, incredible technology, fascinating strategy, and serious speed--that's what F1 is about and I love it. Millions of viewers around the world agree.

-zuff

I dunno mlanger, it's more like the difference between checkers and chess I think.
Checkers has more action and moves but...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zuffenhausen


You're just bitter because you have to get up so damn early out on the left coast to see the races and you probably don't know how to program your VCR. :D

Seriously, you obviously don't follow F1 or you'd never make a statement like that. Sure, some of the races are processional--but most are very dynamic, especially if you'll look back in the pack a bit.

Ahhhh - the oh so expected flame ;)

First, I have been bored by enough F-1 to know better than to get up early to watch it. World Cup soccer, yes, F-1 no. As for hiring a teenager to program the VCR...

Let me get this straight - I should watch the back markers for action... when these guys don't even count in the championship? Oh by the way, they don't show the backmarkers that much on TV until they crash. Come on... have YOU ever seen someone make a pass at the A-Ring? (uh..... well I mean, other than Schuey's...)

F1 is only boring to those who are looking to be constantly entertained.

Well.... uh... since I don't get paid to watch motorsports, that's pretty much why I watch - entertainment. I mean, what other reason is there for watching motorsports than entertainment? You can't get any ancillary benefit from watching motorsports (unless its related to your job). This is unlike, say, working on my car which at least provides a meditative aspect, a satisfaction aspect, gets my car fixed, and is entertaining (occassionally). Am I really supposed to suffer through un-entertaining racing because it took so much money, technical skill and driving skill to put on the show? Now if that skill was creating daring passes and photo finishes, THEN you would have my attention (and I don't doubt that if these drivers are capable of this, its just the technology and the series precludes it)

If you had any idea what it takes to drive an F1 car at speed, or to design and engine that can actually pull from 8K up to 18K, then maybe you'd see past the surface and realize how much is really going on.

Well... without debating my or your understanding of driving skill, I also know its difficult to be a brain surgeon, yoga master, semiconductor engineer or gourmet chef... and I don't find watching any of those folks entertaining either. As for the skill to make an engine rev to 18K... who cares about the skill that goes into creating the car that entertains me... I am not a mechanic and engineering spectator... (and I doubt many others are, or we would have the National Software Coders Runoffs each year) and who cares about the amount of skill it takes to drive one of these cars if the resulting race is boring to watch.

The point is that all of this technology and driver skill exists to create a competition which is supposed to be entertaining. It may be more impressive to create and pilot a F-1 car than a roundy-round sprint car, but that does not guarantee that its more entertaining to watch (it isn't).

Millions of viewers around the world agree.


Oh, then I must be wrong... oops sorry...
:p

Sorry Jim, I don't understand... neither Checkers OR Chess is entertaining to watch. ;)

Now if Checkers drivers set up other Checkers drivers with the feint to the outside and then the dive to the inside pass, I'd be watching that all day...

If you are saying that F-1 is more fun to watch than more competitive racing because there is all sorts of strategy that goes on about tire compounds and pit strategies and team orders, then you are making my point. The whole reason that stuff is so central to F-1 more so than other racing is that is where the race is won and lost - not on the track wheel-to-wheel. F-1 is the most expensive bench-racing series ever.

You get all of that kind of stuff in Nascar (two or four tires, suspension adjustments, etc.) AND you get compelling racing.

I'm with mlangner on this, the most entertaining racing series to watch are the ones in which the rules keep the cars even and force the drivers to win the races. When a series becomes dominated by one driver or team it becomes boring. To me F1 is the "touch football" of the motorsports world!

flame on! I still think it's boring. :)

as an insomniac, F1 is a god-send. Not necessarily because it puts me to sleep (team orders are almost as good as Ambien though), but on the left coast it tends to be on in the middle of the night...right about when I wake and and can't get back to sleep. Beats the heck out of "paid programming"

Boy, that wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement :p Actually I'll watch most anything except ovals...but when is Arrows coming back? I miss their paint job.

Here you go. Took this shot at Spa. Even though they didn't race, the Orange/Arrowst-shirt sales were booming.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/arrows.jpg



Interesting comments in this thread, but F1 is still one of the most exciting things going. You just have to know where to look. Try back at the battles for 12th or 13th place.

As far as team orders, that new rule is stupid. It's clearly aimed at Ferrari; but what's to stop them from holding a car in the pit an extra second or two to let things go the way they want. This rule is not enforceable.

The solution is not to make rules bringing Ferrari down to the level of others but for them to improve to the level of Ferrari. If there was competition for even second place, then there would not be an opportunity for one of the Ferrari's to slow down so the other could win. I expect Williams/BMW to come back as soon as they get a suspension to match the engine they have. All sports have teams that dominate for short periods. Ferrari's short period is just a little longer than most. If Kimi Raikonen gets the right car under him, he has the skill to knock Schumacher off the number one spot.

i gotta agree ;)

i watch m/c gp, but even switched off sometimes 'cause rossi dominated so much it was boring.

F1 viewing figures
 

It's true that Ferrari domination and Ferrari team orders have made F1 less interesting over the last couple of years and viewing figures have dropped.

What you have to remember is that the viewing figures are still around 54 billion (54,000,000,000) for the season and that F1 is a GLOBAL motorsport. I can't find viewing figures for NASCAR but I seriously doubt that they can compete with F1 - especially since it's not really taken seriously anywhere outside the US - (I mean, racing round an oval for goodnes sake......)

Now, my absolute favorite motorsport is rallying. The WRC is a truly spectacular form of racing and they certainly don't have wheel to wheel or overtaking there.......

Just my opinion



Doug

Re: F1 viewing figures
 

I am right there with you on the excitement level with WRC, even without any passing. But WRC doesn't bill itself as the ultimate in wheel to wheel racing either...

You might want to check out this old Pelican thread discussing Porsche's new FIA-approved F1 racetrack in Leipzig:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79169&highlight=porsche +f1

I'm not one for taking anything away from Ferrari or Schumacher and what they have accomplished. But I admit that a series where the winner tries to win by the closest margin because he doesn't have anything else to do to keep himself occupied isn't particularly interesting -- and I love F1! The problem is that Schumie and Ferrari have solved the the problem in such a way that it is doubtful that anyone else will get close in the near future (barring any personal tragidies). They've got the whole package locked up: driver, designer, manager, tires, etc. Hey inspite of 200 years of free enterprise and 60+ years of anti-trust legislation Microsoft still grew to dominate the computer world. Is anyone going to knock them off in the near future if they don't screw up? Doubtful. Would the world be a better place if F1/Computers were not dominated by one team? Undoubtibly. Have Ferrari or Microsoft done anything wrong? No. The funny thing is that F1 has always been "dominated" by some team or another -- looking back I can remember the years when Williams pretty much cleaned house, or the Marboro McLarens of Senna/Prost, or Prost Lauda. How about the days of Jackie Stewart?

Anyhow, I was just proposing a bit of "out of the box" thinking to stir some debate. I guess that upsets people....

BTW: Jack, you'll be happy to know that I'm not influenced any controlled substances. Hell - I've had the same 2 bottles of beer sitting in the fridge for months since I haven't had the time/inclination to drink 'em. At my age it will just turn into ballest at the track anyhow. :rolleyes:

Just saw a report about BMW pulling out of the Williams deal and building their own
car in '05. Seems to me there are going to be major changes if the manufacturers
dump Bernie as they are trying to do, and start their own series, or maybe the threat
will be enough for Bernie to cave in and give up his stranglehold. Either way it's interest-
ing, although I'm not sure that a manufacturers F1 series is all that promising sounding.

Ferrari, BMW, Mecedes (now own 40% of McLaren), Ford, Toyota, Porsche/VW/Audi, Honda,
GM, won't it eventually come down to who is willing to spend the most? And for how long?
The big car companies are notoriously fickle for pulling the plug arbitrarily for not being able
to justify the expense to stockholders if they're not winning, or someone is killed, or the
new beancounter doesn't get it...

I'm watching with interest and hoping for the best.