78 SC Ignition Switch problems
 

Gents,
so this morning my episode was fuel pump relays.. Got that fixed and had a glorious day on the road. Tonight went to fill up at the station. Shut off the car. When put the key back in the key turned all the way to the right. Both red lights north and south on the temp and druk pressure gauge went on full red. The key turns all the way to the right, never the resistance where it would engage the starter and basically goes all the way to the right and doesnt return. I obviously something inside the starter went bad. also to note the car is old, and the key is by no means nice and snug in the ignition anymore.

Any one have any ideas about this? 956 $$ for a new ignition switch is not an option for me. i saw that they also sell just the inside ignition switch for 114$. Thats more my speed. Anyone know about re-keying these as well??

thanks !

Do a search for ignition switch plug replacement. You can replace the end plug on the ignition switch - but it's a bear to get to. I am certain our host sells one.

The spring loaded section is held onto the ignition by two screws then the electrical plug plugs into it. If you look under your dash while standing on your head you will see what I am talking about.

The best way to do it is to remove the front lower leather bolster that goes across the front - there are three screws holding it in place - that makes things a whole lot easier when dealing with under the dash issues.

Here's the link to the page - it's the first item listed - goes for around $110 - $114.

Thanks Stormcrow. i appreciate it.. i have actually changed the entire ignition switch out once before,. but not just the internal. I will work on this and post shots.

stormcrow, this is rediculous.. i got the part, but there is no human way to get to the top bolt.. the article i read was for a 928. Very roomy surroundings compared to our 9's. Same thing, but its impossible to get to the top bolt to get it out.. simply impossible. I think i will just have to pull the entire ignition assembly, key and all out of it. there is just no way to reach it with any too. known to man. if anyone has left an ignition in the car and pulled this off they deserve a medal of honor and must be a contortionist.

The most tedious job among 911 projects........
 

Rpo,

Removing the two (2) tiny screws holding the circular plastic part is probably the most tedious job anyone would ever encounter in a 911. I could have done a valve adjustment and a change oil faster than removing these hard to reach fasteners. Not only that the screws are in tight spot, you got to be a contortionist to perform such task with seat installed. But I have done the removal twice!!!!! So it is doable.

People have done this task before many times over. It needs patience, perseverance, and determination to succeed. And most of all the right tool for the job. I have removed or dismantled almost every conceivable parts in a 911 (SC's & Carrera) and this one is top on my list as the most tedious task I've encountered so far. Could you name one worst than this one?

Tony

Not impossible at all. Just tedious and painful,

Oh boy... I think I'm in for some fun
 

I just "fixed" my ignition switch. Now it really doesn't work. :mad: Similar symptoms to your initial post except if I double clutched, reset the parking brake, turned the wheel a couple times and said a short prayer the car would fire up 8 times out of 10. So I tried a dry lubricant in the ignition switch hoping for 10 out of 10. Now nothing out of 100. I get the battery, oil, O2, brake lights and whine but the car does not turn over.
It is an 82 SC with 90K miles. I want it to be reliable.
What are my options?... and making the car a static display is not one.
Thanks!!!!!
John

Really, only one option--you need to replace the electrical portion of the switch. The dry lube had nothing to do with the ultimate failure as the lube only aids the moving of the lock pins and the cylinder. The fact you still get the dash lights to come on says that the cylinder is turning the electrical portion through all positions and electrical contact is made except in "start."

There is one more possibility and it's a more expensive repair. The mechanical part of the lock turns the electrical portion via a "+" shaped pin fits into the slot of the electrical part. That pin is pot metal and sometimes cracks and twists due to the constant twisting over the years. If it twists far enough, without breaking, it can still turn the switch through its "on" and "run" positions, but not far enough (or is it strong enough) to twist through the spring resistance of the "start." If the pin breaks off, which it eventually will, you will get no response when turning the key--no dash lights, no power.

To be sure what your problem actually is, you will need to take off the electrical part, at least, or remove the entire switch.

Thank you L.J. I will get the switch ordered asap and attempt the contortionist repair.
So if the dry lube only helped the key turn... why did I go from 8 out of ten starts to zero out of (now) a hundred attempts? Just wondering.
JHM

Before you order any part, check to see just what the problem is. I outlined two possibilities but you won't know which it is until you disassemble the switch. The most likely is the electrical part, but it still may be the mechanical part (much more expensive.) Once you get the electrical part off, you can see if the pin is twisted and you can check the "start" position of the electrical portion with a screwdriver.

As to why you have no starting after lubing the lock, I can only surmise that the ease of turning the key/cylinder simply sped up the deterioration of whatever part was faulty. My worry, for you, is that you had a cracked/weakened pin and the ease of turning, with full force after lubing, caused it to twist further.

No problems. I don't like throwing money away any more than anyone else... but I really want to get the car back on the road. Just way too much fun driving it than to have it sit in the garage. I'll get the switch out, take a look and let you know. Thanks again....
JHM

Okay... no miracle occurred... but I've tried starting it maybe 20 more times. Nothing but lights... but now I'm noticing another symptom that L.J. may be able to use for his diagnosis. When I turn the steering wheel I get a smooth metal on metal rubbing sound. The wheel turns fine and if I take the key out the wheel will lock but it is definitely there... and I don't think it should be. Is this pointing to the $900+ fix rather than just the switch? How will I know when I get the switch out? That is my task for tomorrow.

I don't think your latest observation is related to the no start problem, but it may be related to the mechanical part--or not. You may just be hyper-sensitive to the function of the lock/wheel since you've been focusing on the start issue. Clearly, the lock is returning into the steering shaft to lock the wheel, and it is being retracted so the wheel turns freely. Still, there may be something gumming up the works a bit that allows a bit of contact between the retracted shaft and the steering column. You also may be hearing some other metal to metal contact within the steering wheel/horn ring/turn signal cancel ring assembly.

Once the lock is removed, you will be able to tell what your problem area is. You'll be able to extend and retract the lock shaft when you turn the key. The shaft does extend beyond the housing of the lock when fully retracted so don't be concerned if that is what you notice. (see below)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1308246078.jpg

Here is a video clip that shows how to remove the lock but, to your issue, once the lock is removed you can see how far the shaft extends and you can see wear marks along the edges where the shaft has contacted the steering column (seen at 2:39 of the video.)
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cpAraO-MsEc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thanks for the info and the video. I am much more confident about getting the whole deal out of the car. I read one forum about removing the steering wheel. I'd prefer not to. And I saw that they took the lower dash off. I think I can get the bolts off without messing that up too.
The car is a rebuild by Nick Schumacher. It is beautiful. I really want to keep it that way.

Okay... the video really helped. Thanks. The switch is out. Pictures attached. The only thing abnormal to the untrained eye is that one screw was loose on the ignition switch which allowed the switch to back off the mechanical portion just a wee bit. The "+" piece of metal from the mechanical to the electrical is more of a "-" but there were no bits sitting in the gap and no obvious wear and tear and it appears to turn the steering wheel locking mechanism fine.
So where does the starter get its juice and how do I test this thing before I put it all back together? OBTW a new switch is on the way. Please tell me I don't need a new mechanical portion.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1432542004.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1432542042.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1432542075.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1432542228.jpg
And thanks for all the help.
John

One more tidbit...reading the forum, some complained that after the new switch was installed it required that they turn the key all the way counterclockwise before trying a restart. Related but different, when I turn the key to start, there is no spring that returns the key to run. That is nothing different than before the "no start" problem but also may be a symptom.

The above bold part of your post indicates a fault in the electrical portion. When you release the key from "start," it should spring back into the run position. Looks like your electrical part is, indeed, faulty.

You can test it for starting, however, very easily. Keep the electrical part separated from the lock and plug in the electrical harness from under the dash. Using a blade screwdriver, simply turn the "+" on the back of the electrical unit to the right. Your ignition should go through all its sequences including meeting resistance at the "start" position and at the far right turning, the engine should crank. Releasing pressure on the screwdriver should allow it to spring back to the run position. If the above test doesn't happen, use the new unit in your ignition when you receive it.

The lock-out you describe which prevents a restart without first turning the key all the way to the left is a function of the mechanical lock portion.

Well. If the "start" spring is in the electrical switch, it ain't working anymore. I just tried turning the switch in my hand with the screwdriver. It turns, but there is no spring turning it back to "run." Is that it?

Yep, that's it. I suggest you try the test again with the unit plugged into the ignition harness. See if you get the starter to crank when you reach the far right position. Just a double check that the unit is junk.

John,

In turning your key, I think the "start" portion of the travel was locked out. The system that keeps you from engaging the starter when the engine is already running is also preventing you from getting from "run" to "start." I don't know if that's electrical or mechanical, but these guys do.

Dru

Did I tell you I was a slow learner? So... I put the switch alone in the circuit and turned the screwdriver. A great sound occurred. Engine fired right up. And I could repeat that with the screwdriver. So I took the switch out and put it back on the mechanical portion. The key worked once. Then not again for 10 tries. Then again. Then not again for 15 times. I took the mechanical part off and (now that I know what I'm looking for) got the electrical to work every time. So doctor, what is the diagnosis? I'm guessing that I could drive around with a screwdriver and a hole in the dash or get a new mechanical part. How does that work with the key? I'm guessing there is a way to pull the key cylinder... but I get ahead of myself... again.

Okay... so with just the electrical switch and screwdriver I can turn the switch to start and it returns to run with a click... but then if I turn it slightly further counterclockwise I get another click. Don't know if that points again towards the electrical switch. I should be getting the new switch by the end of the week.

Edit: You posted while I was typing. To be clear, you have resistance when you move to the "start" position and it springs back on its own. Correct?

A couple of possibilities but first, when you use the screwdriver, do you feel the spring resistance in the unit? Does it spring back after starting? If so, then let's take a look at the mechanical part.

First, as mentioned by RDM, make sure you are turning the key all the way to the "off" position after an attempted start to be sure the lock out is overridden. Next, use a pliers to see if the pin that fits into the electrical unit is solidly embedded into the lock. If it rocks or twists in the lock base, that may be the reason why it won't turn the electrical unit past the starting resistance.

If the pin checks out, observe how much of a twist the pin makes when you turn the key from lock to "on" to "start. You can do that by making a dot with a felt marker that lines up the ear of the pin with its location on the base. Then, use the key to turn the lock fully to the "start" position, and make another dot on the base where the ear is now located. Do this several times to confirm the pin is turning as far as it can and the lock out is overridden. Now, place the electrical unit next to the lock and line up the slot with the dot in the lock base when the ignition was "off." Twist the unit with the screwdriver and note where the slot is positioned in the "start" position. Does it match the second dot in the base or is it twisted further?

Try the above checks and report back. At this point, I'm a bit puzzled until I know the pin and electrical unit both turn to the same degree.

Your problem may be with the mechanical lock out which is in the key tumbler assembly. Take a look at this thread as it sounds very similar. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/476908-ignition-switch-springing-problem.html

With the electrical switch, there is spring resistance when I turn it to start and it returns to run.
With the mechanical switch, I am returning the key all the way to off... most of the time I'm removing the key.
The pin moves just a little with pliers... less than five degrees.
So I followed your instructions for the dot. See first photo.
The single dot is off. The two dots is start. And the three dots is run. It took me 30+ tries turning the key to get it turn to "start" (2 dots). It stops most of the time at "run" (3 dots).
I just tried another 30+ times and got it to "start". See second photo.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1432585480.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1432585516.jpg

Dru, I don't know if they are called the same thing... but there is a lock out on the electrical and another on the mechanical. LJ sent me a link to a thread that I followed to http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/348306-ignition-switch-inside-fix-start-lockout.html. This appears to describe my problem. If I can fix it, I will.

If you haven't read the thread I linked in my last post, please do as it sounds like your problem. The issue turned out to be the lock out which is in the mechanical/key/tumbler part of the lock--not the electrical unit. The thread shows how to repair the problem as well. Given that the pin doesn't turn completely to "start" consistently, I believe the lock out is the issue.

Here's the problem and the link. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/476908-ignition-switch-springing-problem.html

http://www.911chips.com/lock1.JPG

LJ... I was reading all of it and I think you've found the culprit. I don't plan to rekey the car... but I think I need to go into the mechanical part and clean things up a bit.
Late here. Another day. Thanks for all the help. I'll see RDM tomorrow at work. We'll have lots to talk about. Thanks.
John

LJ, RDM, Progress. I disassembled the mechanical switch. Found everything in order (no broken parts, no excessive grime). Cleaned it all up and lubed with dry lube and reassembled. Got 3-4 times to start out of 20. Disassembled all and removed the pin. Got 20 out of 20 times to start (without lockout protection). Disassembled all and lubed only the bottom of the assembly and wiped all the lube off the ring so there is a little friction to help slide the ring back. Got 11 out of 20 times to start (with lockout protection). So... what do you think? I'm leaning towards removing the pin and spring and training myself to not turn the key to start while the engine is running.

LJ, Thank you. I reassembled everything minus the pin and spring in the mechanical switch. All is good. Fires up EVERY TIME and gives me a bit more confidence that I won't get stuck some place. Time to get some drives in. Again, thank you.
JHM

Congratulations!

But did you say drive? Here's what you missed tonight:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1433106498.jpg

It doesn't get much more drivier than that.

"Easy" Button
 

I just went through the ignition replacement today and using the same trick I learned from seat installation, it took me less than 10 minutes to reinstall the top screw on the ignition (yes the one up under the dash). Ok, so I started out with grand finale because while I did learn the super cool way to make this a super (relatively) easy job, it took me an hour and a half to figure out the trick on the front end. For those of you that have already removed/replaced your seats, you may have already guessed at the trick. For the rest, I'll pull a Tarantino move and start from the begining even though you already know the ending (or do you....).

I just needed to replace the igniton module, but I prepped to remove the whole unit if I needed to. Tip #1, get a 3/8" bit for your multi tool and cut a groove in the break-off bolts:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1433131569.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1433131598.jpg

Next I drilled out the rivets and replaced the break-off bolts with stainless allen head bolts:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1433131844.jpg

I didn't pull the whole unit, so I didn't remove the knee pad, but I was replacing my blinker and washer stalks, and noticed that with a stubby allen, you should be able to get to the retainer bolt:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1433132295.jpg

Nice pics Josh and Dru. Josh has the makings of "The other Bentley - The rest of the Story". Dru... you just like to rub it in. Thanks.
JHM

Ok - for the moment you've been waiting for, the easy button/tool:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1433132727.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1433132751.jpg

That's from Harbor Freight (if you couldn't tell by the Pittsburg logo). I used a driver bit about 1 1/2" long and it worked like a charm. Even easier was the reinstall - just use some electrical tape to hold the screw. Once it "bites" pull out the bit with the tape and then continue to screw it in the rest of the way:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1433132913.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1433132942.jpg

Also found out that the AA mini-mag fits perfectly in the corner between the vent hoses. You need to have your kick panels out for this trick:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1433133039.jpg

Josh... THAT is an OUTSTANDING hack. Very elegant and straight forward. Probably a bit more reproducible than mine. My solution for getting the allen bolt reinstalled was to balance it on the end of a bent croquet wicket with the other end stuck in my right ear and my two middle fingers gently trying rotate the bolt applying equal amounts of force to both sides to keep from losing its position. Oh, and I like your flashlight idea better too. I had a small light balanced on my chest under the dash. If I held my breath just right, the light lit up the bolt perfect.

The flashlight hack was almost by accident. I was trying to find a way to balance it and it just slid back, right into the perfect position. I still had to pull it out of there and either jam it up in between some wires on the left side (on floor facing up) of the ignition or try to hold it with my left hand. Just be forewarned, if you jam it up on the wires, it'll be great and awesome, until it falls out and wacks you on the forehead.

2 other comfort hacks I found were 1) a middle row seat from a Ford Expedition is the perfect height to lay on. If you had one of those adjustable height tables popular for engine removals, I'd use one of those to lay on. 2) a #4 soccer ball donated by the neighbor's kid works perfect as a head rest. It fits right in the curve of your neck, below your skull. Also, don't quote me on the #4 thing. I don't know soccer or soccer balls, but I do know hacks :D

Decided to tackle this project today and wanted to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. Made a tough job easier.

My 1971 still had what I imagine is the original switch with slot-head screws. Made the top screw all the more challenging.

To pay this thread forward for anyone else with an older F-Body 911 featuring the slotted screw:

• The angle of the drive-bit must be perfectly square with the screw head and the the mini-ratchet won't work (at least wouldn't work for me with the slotted screw).
• A 1/4 in. open ended wrench will easily turn the driver-bit while you use the index-finger of your other hand to push the bit and maintain engagement with the slot-head screw.
• Unless maintaining a concours car, replace the slotted screw with a Phillips head or hex-head M4-.07 10 mm (mini-ratchet worked perfectly for this). Your future self, or the next owner will thank you!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753646032.jpg

On my SC the steering column lock was hanging up slightly and contributing to some issues. Fortunately the metal is relatively soft and it was quite easy to drill through and install a roll pin making it permanently retracted.

Bonus is that it’s easier to push/manuever my car around in the garage if I don’t have the keys handy.