123 distributor opinions?

[\\trent]

Just wondering if anyone is using a 123 on a 911. I have a '74 and don't know how the ignition differs from normal with this CDI unit. I've seen MSD comments but not much else..

As background I have a 123 in my ALFA and one in my Citroën DS and love them, they work great, I sleep well never worrying about points.

Realistically it isn't a ton of money to put one in. Guess I'll do my homework on CDI, I can't tell how it would fit into the picture plus I don't think 123s are vacuum advance.

[chris_seven]

What's wrong with points and a condenser?

Over the last 30 years we have been persuaded that points and condensers are the evil enemy and should be discarded on sight.

There have been so many 'improved' systems on the market - all offering massive improvements is starting ability, fuel economy and reduced emissions. All we need now is a system based on Di-Lithium Crystals and life will be complete.

I have never seen any published dyno results that clearly demonstrate some of the power increases that we are supposed to obtain although I am sure that many people will disagree.

The main benefit of the HKZ Bosch system is the capacitor discharge which means that points are used for switching and don't carry significant current so their life should be significantly improved and I don't understand how changing the manner in which the box is triggered will affect performance.

I also find it odd that many Classic car enthusiasts who restore, modify and maintain their own cars as a hobby fit parts that eliminate the need for maintenance.

We recently serviced a 1967 911S that had been running a Hall Effect Switching System to replace the points (A well known brand). The owner suggested that there was a carb issue as the car had developed a high speed misfire which had been present above 6000rpm for several years.

We spent some time investigating and finally replaced the 'Ignition unit' with a pair of Bosch Contact Breakers and re-fitted a Condenser - 7200rpm no misfires much cleaner running and a Customer who said the cart had not run so well for 10 years.

I just think 'If it isn't broken why fix it'.

[\\trent]

Nothing and I mean NOTHING wrong with points and a condenser! With your comment I understand CDI a bit better. I guess the 123 would just pop right into the mix if I'm getting the right idea.

With the Citroën there is plenty of wrenching available I promise.

My question was just a curiosity since I've not seen them mentioned.

I have installed the 123s on the other two cars for reliability not speed. Yes I do know points are reliable but realistically I find it nice to eliminate them. Points do wear on a non CDI system and that's a PITA.

[chris_seven]

I used to use Points replacement systems and had always thought that they were genuinely fit and forget.

I stopped using them on our Historic rally cars in around 2003 when we ran cars in a Pre-68 category when points were mandatory.

I have to say that unlike the old Lucas points we found the Bosch Points on the '002' Dizzy we used were excellent and never really had issues.

Until last year I had never expected that the 'points replacement' Hall Effect' devices would malfunction and cause misfires and like you thought it was all good news. The 67 'S' certainly changed my perspective and our belief that these systems were fault free and either worked or failed totally had us looking in the wrong direction which in retrospect was a bit dim.

With the cost of these units being around 5 x the price of points I have now changed my view a little.

With a CD box you won't have a condenser and I would have thought point life would be quite a few years.

I must say that I used to run a Lancia Fulvia 1600HF with a Marelli and points that were below the baseplate and changing them was a nightmare but on a 911 it is quite easy.

[\\trent]

That's what I'm aiming for is set it and forget it. I have family in Dallas (I'm in Tulsa) and I'd like to run down there in the 911 once in a while. The AUDI TT is fun but not a 911...

I've never had tons of points issues either but let's concede that there is a slightly worn, not full performance mode that points have that is eliminated by a 123 or similar system. Agreed??

I have used MarelliPlex distributors before, I believe they're Hall effect, and yes they can be flakey BUT they have the moving bit that tends to wear the wires out. 123 not so.

The CD box is quite interesting and you have piqued my interest in studying it.

Okay now I'm laughing, I am literally looking at a 1974 ALFA Romeo Spider with that painful under the rotor points setup!! For bonus points it is my first car from 30 years ago.

[RSTarga]

It's really only the rubbing block that wears out on points, but it only takes about 30 minutes to change them, adjust the dwell and check the timing.

[dicklague]

This discussion comes up here often.

I am not familiar with the 123, but I did look it up and it sounds interesting.

you can convert the stock ignition to pointless with a Pertronix Hall effect system for around $100 USD. Crane also makes a unit that uses a photo cell.

I drove my 1973 for many years with points and finally got tired of adjusting them......the rubbing block does wear away, and if you drive your 911 a lot, it becomes a pain to be constantly fiddling with something that you don't have to fiddling with.

I could feel the performance difference in my 2.7 MFI motor when the dwell was out of wack. I even got stranded on the freeway once when I ignored the signs of point gap going away. I put about 10,000 miles a year on my 911 so I want the points to work.

Well I finally gave up 8 years ago and installed Pertronix and never looked back. This is not the only pointless solution but it worked for me.

I carry and extra set of points and an extra Pertronix in my tool bag......of course I have never needed them!!!

Looks like the 123 is NOT CDI. I highly recommend CDI for these old Porsches. The Bosch is a 50 year old design and works, but there are better.

I like the ************ CDI that looks like the Bosch, but is very modern and well built.

I personally am using a Daytona-Sensors CD-1 system and love it. Much better made than the MSD......and very competitively priced. Daytona Sensors LLC - CD-1 Capacitive Discharge Ignition System for Racing

I put thousands of miles on my 911 with the old systems and thousands more with the new.

There is not comparison.

The purists will tell that points are fine.....and yes they do work,........but I don't want to live with them.

These old cars have imperfect fuel delivery with MFI, carbs etc.....they need all the help they can get. And the ignition makes a BIG difference.

Also you can keep all the old parts and put the points back in etc......before you put it in a museum.

[RedCoupe]

Automotive engineers knew for decades that the traditional points/condenser/distributor ignition had many flaws but economics prevented them from implementing better ignition systems until solid state devices became reliable and affordable. Essentially, the saturation time of the coil gets shorter and shorter the higher you rev the engine so the voltage to produce a spark declines as you rev up the engine. Smaller spark plug gaps helped, but at the expense of smooth running at idle and lower engine speeds. When wider spark plug gaps were tried, higher voltage coils had to be utilized and these pulled so much current through the points that metal transfer was a significant problem. Dual points and distributors that randomly reversed the flow of current through the points were ways to deal with the high current that had to be switched by the points, but the real solution was electronic ignition and capacitive discharge ignition (CDI). An additional advantage of the no-points systems (Hall effect and magnetic pickup) is that dwell and timing isn't affected when distributor bushings wear. Even slightly worn distributor bushings with a traditional points-style distributor can cause unstable dwell and timing.

[\\trent]

I guess I don't understand why the 123 dizzy isn't just plug and play??

[chris_seven]

I really need some help with understanding why 'ignition' is such a big deal.

I can accept that timing will minutely vary with worn distributor bushes but if you make measurements with a distributor test machine even very worn distributors tend to give an advance curve that falls within the tolerance band published in the Workshop Manual.

Really bad wear cause the rotor to rub on the contacts in the cap and clearly this is an issue but affects all triggering systems.

I would agree that CD and Transistor Systems give better results at high rpm but the manner in which they are switched has little influence on their performance.

The early transistor systems such as the Lucas Rita had no advance curve at all and were hopeless on anything other than full race engines.

I have tried all manner of Ignitions systems over the years and they all need some form of maintenance.

Some of the opto coupled devices are dirt sensitive, some of the 'ignitor' style systems don't like vibration and just fail without warning and distributors and caps just wear.

The original design of points used 'Tufnol' heels and breakers using this material offer the best performance.

the modern trend to use moulded plastic heels is not good and this is where most of the problems arise.

The only way out is to fit crankfire systems and chuck out the dizzy.

I think 'Plug and Play' is a bit like Nano Technology and is overused.

I have no experience of a 123 dizzy but I understand it has 16 pre-installed advance curves.

If you fit the dizzy and it automatically selects the 'optimum' curve I guess you can call it Plug and Play.

If you have to manually select 1 from 16 then its not really plug and play.

Looking at the software '123 Tune' it looks as if the curve is defined by 5 points which I don't think is enough.