i use to do auto electric work for a living.

remove he connector to the AFM and leave it off. do not conect it back until this is fixed.

with the key on does the FP run?
will the car start if the FP runs

remove the cover from the relay. is it open or closed.

The car never starts. There is spark. The fuel pump is working when the key. There is some popping but no start.

It is right when the key first gets to ACC.

I've tested this. 86/87a both have 12v. Are you suggesting a different or specific test scenario?

No.

Yes. If I jumper the relay socket from 30 to 87a. The fuel pump runs and I can start the car. In fact it runs great.

Terminal #85.......
 

Anthony,

When you connect a TL between terminal #85 and a 12-volt source with the ignition switch @ ON/Run position (not start);
a). Light ON........... this is normal, terminal #85 is grounded. Lift AFS plate, light goes OFF (normal). This test indicates that the AFS switch is good and working.
b). Light OFF...........this is not normal, terminal #85 is not grounded. There is problem with the AFS switch.

Having a TL at terminal #85 with ignition switch @ ON/RUN for above tests (ground or voltage) will not left you start the engine. If you don't believe this, try it and see if you could start the engine.

If you suspect that the ignition switch as a likely culprit, test and monitor presence of power to both 87a & 86 during cranking. The TL when 'ON' should not flicker or comes off anytime during the process unless you turn the switch off. I have not seen any test for 87a & 86 during operation. Keep us posted.

Tony

You and others have explained the test procedures extremely well that the problem
should be identified by now. It doesn't get any simpler than troubleshooting a five
pin relay.

I put the TL on 87a and then on 86. The TL is ON. It does dim a little when the key is turned to the start position and the starter is running. What would that indicate? Wouldn't dimming be normal as the starter is drawing lots of power from the battery?

No opinion on these results?

The new ignition switch should arrive tomorrow.

Power supply test.......
 

Slightly dimming of the TL is normal. If the light would turn off briefly or affected by the starter operation that would indicate erratic power supply from the ignition switch. How are you operating the starter? By turning directly the electrical tumbler? I am seriously concern that after all these tests you have not come to the point of identifying the culprit (?). Are you getting a new electrical switch (round connector)?

Tony

Turning the tumbler with a screwdriver. I removed the ignition switch from the mechanical part with the key already. A new ignition switch should be delivered today, if not Monday.

get a smal screwdriver and pull the cover off the relay. check to see if it is energized or not with the key on and connector removed from AFM.

if the relay is not energized and the FP does not run but runs when you bypass the relay then the relay is bad or it is not making contact with the socket or your testing is wrong.

if it is energized then the wiring from the socket to the AFM is shorted to ground.

The car is starting and running!!! That's the good news. The minor bit of bad news is that the ignition switch was a waste of money though I might as well keep the new one as the old one is 35 years old.

After the ignition switch didn't work. I tried more testing with the test lamp. While doing the AFM switch test I got a different result this time. (the test was intermittent this time, for the first time.)

I decided to remove the fuse box and get behind the FP relay socket to inspect it. As I was moving the fuse box around and I heard a relay under the dash energizing and de-energizing. I started tugging on individual wires to see if I could duplicate the sound and found a wire that was disconnected and grounding on fuse #11. The red wire on fuse #11 is linked to fuse #16 (the FP relay). I think it was grounding it in such a way that prevented the relay from de-energizing after the AFM switch was triggered.

Now I'm trying to figure out where this wire goes. It was phsically sitting between fuse 11 and 12. I think it should go on 12 but the stuff that is supposed to be on 12 still works (fresh air blower). For fust 12 Bentley says 'red/black from ignition starter switch'. There is already a red/black on 12 as well as a mystery red/white wire that is not on the Bentley wiring diagram. (On the Bentley, the red/white (maybe the power window relay) is supposed to be on fuse 14 and I'm hesitant to start rewiring my fuse panel.)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1436858176.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1436858213.jpg

Good news Anthony,
The fuse box in these cars is quite crude,especialy if it has been modified, or added to over the years, but its usualy serviceable, while its out, i would go through all the connections, and make sure they are clean and tight before putting it all back, someone will be along shortly to help with that wire placement i am sure.:)

The manual's way of numbering fuses has always perplexed me some. When I want to know what a particular fuse is protecting I look on the inside of the black plastic cover.

If you have correctly identified fuse 11, per the factory manual it should have a 0.5mm r/w wire (thin), a 1.5mm red wire (thicker, and identified as 15 for tracing on the diagram), and an even thicker 2.5mm red wire for tracing 30. What you can't see is that the top screw post on fuse position 11 is internally connected by a metal strap inside the panel to fuse 18 and fuse 19. So all three of those get their power from the same place if I read the factory manual correctly.

But I'm unsure that either you or I have correctly identified the fuses. I don't have my fuse cover handy. Though I bet a search on this site for fuses on panel or something would turn up good information, a picture with numbers, a diagram, etc. The fuse panel, as I recall, is in three segments, and each plastic panel has numbers cast into it, but they are sequential only for the panel. The rearmost one has only three positions, and is numbered 1-3. But the next one, with more positions, starts with 1, and goes up.

So cut through all this.

You have a black wire coming in to your 11.

I also see black tape - what's that for?

A guess is that the black wire replaces something - maybe the loose wire?

Short term, as I bet you figured, tape that one up so it doesn't do this again and drive the car.

At some point, trace the loose wire to see where it goes. If you have started unfastening the fuse panel, that should not be too hard to do at this point, rather than later.

Just be sure you have disconnected the battery.

Am I right that you just missed seeing this loose wire the other times you had the cover off so you could fiddle with the relay? Well, who would have thought it - none of us trying to dope out a logical cause for your problem did.

I don't yet know what the black wire is. It was there so I'm leaving it until I know where else it might go.

The black tape was existing. It's just wrapping the two wires at 11 together.

The red/black wire in question is loomed together with a red wire that goes to the bottom of fuse 17. I think the loose wire goes to the top of fuse 12. It's the only place in the wiring diagram that I see a red/black wire going. (unfortunately, I'm at work and typing this from memory and I'm unable to refer to the wiring diagram at this moment.)


It didn't reveal itself until I took the fuse panel off the body. Since the wire comes from the back, it was not obvious from the front.

I've also seen a few other inconsistencies when looking at each fuse and comparing to the Bentley wiring diagram. I'm afraid to just start moving stuff around how I think they should be without more research and study.

Coincidentally, when the lose wire was touching 11, it was making a relay under the dash click. I don't know if it touched that terminal one too many times because now I can't reproduce that and the fresh air blower motor no longer works. That also gives me a clue as to where the red/black wire goes.