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Location: Deep in the bowels of UCLA hospital
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Speed Channel, ARP bolts, nuts info
well I was watching 2 guys garage on speed channel last night a 5AM...too much drinking and kareokee
well they were assembling a motor and had a ARP representative come out and teach them about nuts, assembly lube and torque... I only caught a part of it but I thought what they said was interesting. so they applied assembly lube on the bolt threads or stud threads the washer to block was left dry the washer/nut surface was lubed... they used some really fancy device to measure stretch and clamping force... they tried once with their assembly lube and once with plain motor oil...the difference was huge...I think the ARP lube had 13,000 lbs of clamping force with 7/1000 of inch stretch on the bolt reg motor oil had 9000 lbs with the same torque and not as much stretch... also he mentioned to "season" the bolt and nut, to cycle it...so torque spec, and undo, torque to spec, und, then torque it for a final reading... that was interesting because I thought once the rod bolts were used and they stretch you cannot reuse them?? any experts?? just thought it was interesting,...especially the difference in clamping force... MJ |
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11-10-2002, 07:12 PM
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Location: So. Calif.
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I saw a portion of that show before I surfed ahead during a commercial and forgot to return. The Home Shopping Network must have caught my attention with their special 500 piece folding hunting knife set w/matching Samurai swords and Khyber Pass dagger set.
I only caught the segment where they buttoned up the bottom end. I'm going to assume their thread lube is equivalent to antiseize compound - motor oil is not the same, and they only dab it on the friction areas (e.g. threads and between nut and washer; not betw. washer and engine part). Can't comment directly on them pre-stretching their fasteners. Some fasteners, like Porsche rod bolts are "stretch" bolts - use once, then toss 'em. Most, unless otherwise stated, are regular fasteners that do not yield to their elastic limit when torqued. Sherwood Lee http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars |
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11-10-2002, 07:25 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Lacey, WA. USA
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As some guys, and they will tell you with big, wide eyes that if you put motor oil or anti-seize on a bolt that does not specify lubing, you'll ruin everything. Motor will blow up. Other guys bolt engines together with breaker bars and don't care whether the rod bolts have oil on them or not. both guys' engines seem to stay together.
Folks like JW think these kinds of discussions are kind of amusing. I think he dabs a little motor oil on fasteners and torques them to spec. End of story.
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Man of Carbon Fiber (stronger than steel) Mocha 1978 911SC. "Coco" |
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11-10-2002, 07:50 PM
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Location: Left Coast, Canada
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Good one, Jim!
But I'd say for the price ARP and Raceware charge for their fancy nuts and bolts, you'd better follow their instructions.
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'81 SC Coupe "Blue Bomber" "Keep your eyes on the road, and your hands upon the wheel."- J.D.M. |
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11-10-2002, 07:55 PM
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From what I hear they tell you to use a lube on it... And there's a torqueing/retorque procedure for them that MUST be followed.
What I wanna know is: Do you locktite 'em? If so, how does it work if they're all lubed up?
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Chris ---------------------------------------------- 1996 993 RS Replica 2023 KTM 890 Adventure R 1971 Norton 750 Commando Alcon Brake Kits |
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11-10-2002, 08:07 PM
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Had this discussion years ago, the reason for using ARP's "moly lube" vs. regular motor oil is that it allows the bolt/nut to turn easier so that more of the torque that is read by the torque wrench is applied as clamping force rather than friction. ARP set their specs with their lube and as you guys saw in the show the difference is huge. As for bolt stretch, torque to yield bolts can only be used once, regular hardware can and is reused but there is a spec for total stretch after which the hardware should not be used. I have used ARP hardware and followed their specs for years on my drag motors and NEVER had a fastener failure, in fact they are about the only parts I haven't broken.
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Email me about 911 exhaust stud repair tools, rsr911@neo.rr.com 1966 912 converted to 3.0 and IROC body SOLD unfortunately  1986 Ford F350 Crew Cab 7.3 IDI diesel, Banks Sidewinder turbo, ZF5 5spd, 4WD Dana 60 king pin front, DRW, pintle hook and receiver hitch, all steel flat bed with gooseneck hidden hitch. Awesome towing capacity! |
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11-10-2002, 10:45 PM
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measuring bolt stretch is an acurate method of measuring clamping force..moly will need less torque than oil to achieve the desired stretch...try measuring desired stretch on Raceware rod bolts on a 2.7 for some interesting applied torque numbers........Ron
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Ronin LB '77 911s 2.7 PMO E 8.5 SSI Monty MSD JPI w x6 |
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11-11-2002, 12:42 AM
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clamping force matters
It seems to me when the manufacturer specifies a certain torque level, it is for the purpose of achieving a particular clamping force.
So if the moly increases the clamping force for a given torque, should you limit the torque to a lower amount? Frank |
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11-11-2002, 06:52 AM
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Re: clamping force matters
[QUOTE] Originally posted by FranksPlace2
[B]It seems to me when the manufacturer specifies a certain torque level, it is for the purpose of achieving a particular clamping force. So if the moly increases the clamping force for a given torque, should you limit the torque to a lower amount? Frank Frank..not a pro here..the clamping force is a function of the stretch of the bolt..the mfg. gives a torque that should achieve the desired stretch..the mfg. may use a lube to get the torque..if the mfg states "oil" and you use "moly", then you would want to reduce the torque applied..not sure of a hard number, but I believe 40%..wheel lug nuts are torqued using moly anti seize....Ron
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Ronin LB '77 911s 2.7 PMO E 8.5 SSI Monty MSD JPI w x6 |
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11-11-2002, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
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11-11-2002, 09:58 AM
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hahah don't knock it till you try it...the karaokee that is...if you go with a attitude of "too cool for school" then it is no fun, but if you just go out and let it all hang out it is really funny
I am sure the engineers at porsche have made the engines and fasteners with a good deal of a safety margin... but hey every little hint/tip/trick helps...for a street engine I am sure it is more important to have ALL the nuts and bolts tight rather then which lube to use etc... But for ARP rod bolts I am definately following intructions... and the tip to lube the nut/washer surface and not the washer block surface is a good tip did anyone see the 5.0L V-8 Ford focus on Speed Channel?? the tester said he crept up on a M5 owner and the guy had no idea how the focus was keeping up with his bavarian bomber...haha I thought it was really funny... MJ |
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11-11-2002, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Back to fasteners, the torque specs are given with the type of lube the manufacturer used to achieve the proper clamping force, using the wrong lube or none at all will yield the wrong clamping force and most likely broken parts. What's the point of spending a small fortune on top quality fasteners and then skimping on the lube and possibly negating their value? Like I said earlier I've used ARP for years "by the book" and never had a fastener fail. They are so strong that I even had an oil loss that cause 3 rod bearings to spin so badly that the billet steel rods were blue and cracked but the bolts were still holding! The alternative is a "ventilated" crankcase.
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Email me about 911 exhaust stud repair tools, rsr911@neo.rr.com 1966 912 converted to 3.0 and IROC body SOLD unfortunately 1986 Ford F350 Crew Cab 7.3 IDI diesel, Banks Sidewinder turbo, ZF5 5spd, 4WD Dana 60 king pin front, DRW, pintle hook and receiver hitch, all steel flat bed with gooseneck hidden hitch. Awesome towing capacity! |
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11-11-2002, 10:09 PM
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1970 Porsche 911 S 
1966 Porsche 912 1981 3.0SC
1978 Porsche SC Targa 3.6
