Brand New '73 Carrera RS'

[cegerer]

This issue has been brought up several times in the past: building brand new early 911's. Well, here's a company that's doing it with Shelby Mustang's. And they're getting $120K for these things! What if a company did the same thing with a 73 Carrera RS. I'm not talking about rebuilding real 73 RS's, but building the ultimate clones. Updated where appropriate, all new parts, warranties, etc. Are there customers out there willing to pay $100K+ for the privilege to drive a brand new, albiet updated, 73 Carrera RS???

http://www.sandersonsales.com/eleanor.html

-- Curt

[Neilk]

Curt,

Sounds interesting, but when you can do you own conversions for less than half that, why bother? And where do you stop with the updates? Do you go with a 2.7RS engine or a 3.8L RS engine?

I would rather have Jack Olsen's car. It is an interesting concept though, just not for me.

[Jim Garfield]

I can't believe that they get that much for that car. I would think that there would be more
demand for the GT 350.

As far as an RS clone, yeah I think that there is a limited market at $ 100k +, but what sort of
value do they have down the road? I saw a beautifully restored real one at Lime Rock for
$130k, for the replicas to sell I think that they need to be more like half the cost of a real one.
But this is just my gut feeling... what do I know?

[Chuck Moreland]

Lots of places can build a ground up RS replica for lots less. But that doesn't make it "real".

I think the only way to make that fly would be to have Porsche sponsor it in some way. They'd have to bless the cars with ligit RS serial numbers and declare them the real thing.

[twin plugged targa]

I did question recently why Porsche have not built a retro 911 -as Jaguar S type, Mini Coopers and VW Beetles have been fairly popular!.
100K does seem a bit steep esp. for a car that would be fairly stripped out.
Buta good idea non the less
rgds Ben

[cegerer]

I guess I just don't get it. I like the concept of this Mustang, but for $120K?? I think you could get 2 very nice REAL Shelby Mustangs for that kind of money. So who's paying $120k for these things and why? -- Curt

[pwd72s]

I don't get it either Curt...but look at all the replica Cobras out there...so much so that they have diminished the thrill of having the real deal...maybe not the price of the real deal, but the thrill is gone, isn't it? At $120K or so? Have to admit, I'd prefer owning a REAL RS over a replica...

[epbrown]

I don't see much market for them either, especially not at that price. The again, in the UK they've got companies that re-make vintage Jaguars and MBZ SLs with all new running gear and rust-proofing, and they seem to be doing well.

Emanuel

[tchanson]

Originally posted by Chuck Moreland
Lots of places can build a ground up RS replica for lots less. But that doesn't make it "real".

Amen to that.


Curt,
Thanks for the post. Although you didn't mention it, I assume you saw this story in the current Autoweek ?

Sanderson appears to be nothing more than a sales/marketing firm, responsible not for actually building cars, but rather for shilling (ahem..) "unique opportunities".

The operative phrase seems to be that "Carroll Shelby has inked a deal". 'Ol Shel never met a (perceived or potential) buck that he didn't like. It appears to me that he may be building a car (singular) that he may or may not sell at Barrett-Jackson in January, depending on whether he can generate enough pre-event PR hype to garner a one time price to establish a "value". Um,.. OK. Anyone else recall the Shelby Series I hoopla, or checked out recent values of (running) examples?

With a starting price of $80K, and a "Performance Version" (presumably that includes little more than "Ol Shel's scribbled signature on your glovebox door) at $120,000, I can't conceive of any takers outside of his already thoroughly fleeced SAC acolytes. Who would possibly lay out that money for a refurbished junkyard, proletarian 'Stang with a whopping 325HP? With top level '65 and '66 GT350's (the only Shelby Mustangs of any consequence) readily available at $75K, what would be the point?

As with his unseemly (and comical, from legal standpoint) pursuit in the courts of other Cobra kit makers, Shelby seems to think that his mere name alone adds the requisite legitimacy to a latter day kit car. (or cobbled together, cheesy movie replica Mustang, in this instance) It does not.

Cars are of a time and place, whether a Cobra or an RS Carrera (obligatory Porsche content) or otherwise. A fake is a fake is a fake, whether you call it a "replica", "clone" or "continuation Cobra" or otherwise. Authenticity will always matter.

I don't mean to seem harsh, but I find this latest example quite disheartening, as Carroll Shelby is, or at least was, (between his LeMans win and his consumate bamboozling of Ford) a legitimate American hero. However, he's done little in the last 30 years but engage in a unique brand of hucksterism that may ultimately overshadow what the man actually accomplished.

Thanks again for the post, Curt.

Tim

[Jim T]

Originally posted by Chuck Moreland
Lots of places can build a ground up RS replica for lots less. But that doesn't make it "real".

I think the only way to make that fly would be to have Porsche sponsor it in some way. They'd have to bless the cars with ligit RS serial numbers and declare them the real thing.

Even then, I don't think it would fly, at least not at the numbers such a car would have to command to make the venture worthwhile.

I think the best modern example is the "factory approved" remanufactured 240Zs of a few years back. I actually thought that would be a popular car - restored to like new as much as possible (with some nods to modernity, like modern shocks instead of shocks filled with fish oil!), backed by Nissan and sold in Nissan showrooms.

The cost was $25,000 - not cheap, but one would think there are plenty of people with some "fun car money" that had/remembered the Z car and would be willing to spend $25K for a new one.

But, it was a resounding flop. Was surprising to me. They sold very, very few cars (a couple dozen?? or less?) and cancelled the program pretty quickly for lack of interest.

The post mortem was that people that wanted a Z tended to be enthusiasts who preferred to buy one for $5,000 and spend money to restore it how they wanted, at their own pace.

I think the same would be true for any "remanufactured" 911. If a restored Z, with factory backing, had to sell for $25,000, I'd imagine an RS would be three times that.

I guess that would really be the issue. If nice, factory RS replicas could be sold for $30,000, they of course would sell a ton. But at $75,000 or $100,000 - I think most would prefer to "roll their own."

[cegerer]

Tim, thanks for the insight. Since I don't really follow the Shelby-world, I hadn't thought of those issues, but I agree!! With that said - and to make a more direct correlation - consider this possibility:

Porsche Design presents the
Butzi Porsche Signature Edition Carrera RS

Today's technology and performance equipment integrated into early 70's mystique. Legendary 911 designer Butzi Porsche will bring a limited number of rebuilt, hot-rodded vintage Carrera RS's to the market this January. These cars will feature 3.6 Liter air-cooled flat-six motors with updated MFI fuel delivery systems, improved suspension design and all features of the original 1973 M471 Lightweight! Cars built to order with numerous optional motors and equipment. Full warranty. Prices start at $95,000US.

I'll bet they would sell all they could make ..... -- Curt

[CamB]

"updated MFI fuel delivery systems"

One hopes the (fictional) update includes EFI. Individual throttle bodies yes, but MFI is not, of itself, required to make it sound right and go well.

I bet they'd sell a few though.

[dean]

I bet that if some one were to build new RS's they would go for a million plus. It is a Porsche after all.

[CamB]

I figure it fall sort of in the same category as these guys (there are plenty world wide when you start to look):

www.beacham-jaguar.co.nz/

A Mark II Jag with 400hp supercharged Jag V8. Oooooh-boy.

I think it is about US$90k or so. They sell a fair few to Japan.

[cegerer]

Cam, those Jag's are awesome! But I think the key to a 911 project would be Butzi's involvement. Without Butzi, you've got an R-Gruppe car that can be built for $50K. With Butzi, the $ky may be the limit ... -- Curt

[CamB]

True true.

What impresses me about the Jags is they didn't hold back on anything - interior, electronics, engine and mechanicals - it looks like a Mark II but it is basically a brand new Jag.

Of course, I wouldn't want that in a 911 (996 interior is yuck to me - it might be ergonomic mastery but I LIKE the old-school 911 interior).

But I would love to have a car with that level of attention to detail...

[tmctguer]

IMHO.......a replica of a 1973 Carrera RS would not hold a value anywhere near a real RS. even with updates (larger engine?, G50 tranny?, turbo?, larger brakes?, etc.), why bother ?

either buy a street legal hopped up 911 for less, OR buy a new 911? if someone wants to spend $100K for a Carrera, hold out for a real one, or move onto another car.

[JSDSKI]

There was a group in Mass that redid BMW's (1600's and 2002's) and also a company that did Volvo's at one time. I don't know if they are still in business. And there are a bunch of relica garages (hesitate to call them manufacturer's) in England who fill this exact market - something like this:

Cut to a garage lit by Lucas:
"Gee Cyril, wouldn't be great if the ol' MGB were new - I mean brand new!?!.

Gosh, Clive, I've got some of the old fender dies in the back - you know the ones that weren't shipped to Indonesia for the Proton.

Right, you hammer weld this piece of tin and I'll decoke the heads.

Margo, be a good girl and put an ad in Classic Cars."

(Sorry, I just had an Altoid and couldn't help myself)
There is always a market for the "renewed" classic - whether it's a MGTC, a Morgan, a C Type Jag, or a Carrera RS. The question is always "how big a market?" Jim T's points about Nissan's attempt to rekindle the 240Z are right on the money. But remember, manufacturer's also do things for marketing purposes - "brand and focus cars" that can really change a budget for something - case in point "the Prowler". Maybe Nissan was just setting us up for the new 350 - who knows ? Marketing people don't think like us.

Personally, I would go to the 45-60K range for a genuine factory replica - I don't think it's a realistic number - but it would be fun to drive a factory-built RS "clone" regularly without worrying about metal fatigue, parts made of unobtanium, and the odd jackass on the freeway taking you out while emailing their fax machine from their cell phone in the rain. It would be "real" enough for me and my lifestyle. I don't think it would affect the real cars value - it might even elevate it!

Marketing makes for some strange production plans.... maybe Porsche will need a dose of hard core 911 some day... what the hell, I'll send a deposit the day they announce it.

[atlporsche]

Nissan did that with 240 Z's a little while back...a limited number of dealers had showroom new '73 240's in stock...they were numbered as 1973 cars, just continued the line...

As for the Butzi edition starting at 95 grand...that's midrange in porsche's line isn't it???

sjd

[kepperly]

PORSCHE are you listening we all don,t have 80k plus to pony up!
I would pick a 911 over a Z-06 if the price was the same!! how much better is a 911 that costs 30k more and is slower!! Put the hot rodders in your Co. back in desicion making roles. Make a car
that will haul ass big time for less than a house and you wouldn't need to make SUV's to stay afloat. Seems simple to me but maybe
all of your managements economics degrees have clouded the Reason Porsche initually prospered.And don't forget some of us truly enjoy working on our own cars so start making them a little more owner freindly when it comes to serviceing them. I love my
87 slantnose turbo look cabriolet but I still remember the days I drove a 69 copo camero and didn't give a sh?t if I bounced the tack off 7000 grand because I knew I could put it back together if I
blew it up!!!
Keith Epperly
Wichita god damm Kansas