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ɹoʇɐɹǝpoɯ
 
Jack Olsen's Avatar
 
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Building a better Black Beauty #1: How Wide?

In its pre-November-10 condition, the car had 8x10x17 wheels with 235/275 tires on it. Now I'm looking at how best to put it back together as a mostly-track-but-still-100%-street-drivable car.

So my first question: If I went to RSR flares -- with 275/335 tires on wider wheels, would my lap times increase or decrease?

Take into account, I'm looking to simultaneously cut about 200 pounds off the car, so the 250-or-so hp will be pushing a lighter (2200-2300 pound) tub.

I know that there's a tipping point on this issue, somewhere. Going from 205/245 to 235/275 made for a very big improvement -- on big tracks like Willow Springs and also smaller ones like Streets of Willow.

Adding the big-'n'-ugly tail also helped.

At some point, of course, aerodynamic, weight and drag trade-offs will catch up with me. I'm just not sure what that point is.

Anybody got any opinions?
Old 11-12-2002, 10:59 AM
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As an aside, I guess you were driving @ 11/10's
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Old 11-12-2002, 11:01 AM
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It's good to see you are dusting yourself off and getting right back on the horse!

I like my cars just like my women, light and lean. So I say narrow body.

If you must go bigger, go ST flares. For me they are the biggest flares that still look in balance with the car, and they give plenty of room for tires.
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Old 11-12-2002, 11:18 AM
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"But This One Goes to 11!"


Sorry I couldn't resist.
Jack I hope you are OK! Damn early apex is a biotch. Hope you can get back in the saddle soon.
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Old 11-12-2002, 11:20 AM
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I think as far as rebuilding BB (Bent Beauty??), RSR flares would be a good way to go. Worked for the factory race cars! Would give you plenty of flexibility to experiment with a variety of different tire sizes. I don't think that the aerodynamic disadvantage from the flares alone would be that substantial for your use.

Plus, it would look awesome!
Old 11-12-2002, 11:21 AM
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I'd say RSR 2.8 flares, and then orange "Kremer" stripes down the doors
You'd have some room to go wider if necessary, plus a better grip from the wider stance.
GeorgeK
Old 11-12-2002, 11:36 AM
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Jack,
The RSR flairs would be great and give you the extra width for the wide wheel/tirew combo. I think that the car will still have lots of power to push teh extra width thru the air! l 260hp plus and extra 200 lbs off the car! still a killer combo. I still love the look of the fat 10's under the narrow body work had a hell of a mean look to her and from the times you were posting.. i'd say killer combo!
just my .02
Eric Mckenna
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Old 11-12-2002, 11:39 AM
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Personally, I love the look of a wide ass on the 911 so I would vote for the wider RSR flares. I would think that dropping 200lbs from the car's weight would offset the increase in drag. I would think that this is especially true of tracks with shorter straights or more curves since there is less air moving across the car at lower speeds.

Just curious, what plans do you have to drop the weight?
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Old 11-12-2002, 11:40 AM
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Thumbs up

For a 90% track car, with no club rules to the contrary, I would go '73 RSR flares and add a full welded in chomoly cage with seat back brace and door bars. It will be faster in corners, maybe slightly less so in a straight line, but taking out weight will help. If you go with big door bars, you can go with fiberglass doors to save a bunch of weight. Maybe now is a good time to remove the sunroof too. Best of luck, Jack - get back on that horse as soon as possible (even if you have to borrow a car to do it!).
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Old 11-12-2002, 11:45 AM
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Jack, in rebuilding BB, are you loosing the weight mostly from up front? What issues, if any, will that present? I'm asking because I have a lot more curiosity than knowledge! Thanks and good luck on the ressurrection of your excellent car.

Regards,
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Old 11-12-2002, 11:56 AM
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The idea is to move the 10's to the front, and put 11's or 12's in the back.

I don't think the RSR look is too bad a trade-off, in terms of appearance:







The weight will come from fiberglass front fenders, rear quarters, front and rear bumpers, doors, and the removal of the sunroof. Lexan glass everywhere but the windshield, too.

A cage will add weight, but increase structural stiffness, which is good for lap times. It's also good for keeping the driver in one piece if things get ugly.
Old 11-12-2002, 11:57 AM
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I like the rst flares but I've got 1 question. If BB's gonning to be streetable wouldn't fiberglass doors with a full cage hinder that?.. IE wouldn't it make it harder to get in and out?

I'd have to do the math but I'd think the extra 200 lbs would compensate for that extra drag..
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Old 11-12-2002, 12:17 PM
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There is now a Lexan for the windshield....it has a hardened surface for the wipers.
Also....in rebuilding..you might want to put together a different gas tank/front cooler/support system at the same time.
Now is the time to consider that approach.
Bob
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Old 11-12-2002, 12:18 PM
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ok- my $.02 :
race weight (we can get a few extra ounces out when we have the 'glass guys really squeegee the parts) doors, RSR quarters, RSR fenders, complete roof (yup cut the entire outer skin , inc that sunroof off)
Then lexan windows for the back 3, the back one will have a glue in flush mount frame, lexan slide ups for the doors.
Followed by a real fuel cell and a complete chrome moly cage with varying sizes and placement of tubes
Result? realistic 2200 lb rocket that will go significantly faster than before- yah... 1:27s at willow here you come
heh heh heh.....

(btw- we don't recommend lexan front windows- they scratch way too easy- "Ah see a thousand points of light...." prismatic effect when you drive the car at night. You ARE keeping it street legal, right?)

Last edited by TRE Cup; 11-12-2002 at 12:21 PM..
Old 11-12-2002, 12:19 PM
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`73 RSR flares would be awesome. Do it, do it, do it!!!
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Old 11-12-2002, 12:24 PM
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Yeah that rsr looks good . Like pontiac use to say "WIDER IS BETTER". Hope you get it built just the way you want it Jack.
keep us posted
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Old 11-12-2002, 12:24 PM
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Some guy had brand new, never installed early RS fiberglass bumper caps (front and rear) on ebay yesterday. No reserve, no bid as of yesterday. Bidding started at $99. I think the auction may have ended but keep your eyes open.
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Old 11-12-2002, 01:02 PM
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I like the wider look just fine. I guess I don't understand how fiberglas rear quarters are installed. Perhaps they are just grafted on.

Randy W recently warned us about the enormous expense of trying to make one car do two jobs. Besides his competition car, the #51 we know and love, Randy has a blue Early S, as a driver. I honestly don't have a favorite among those two.

You would not be able to tow one 911 with another one, but a trailer hitch would look fine on the Jag.
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Old 11-12-2002, 01:14 PM
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Jack, first off glad you are okay.
I've really enjoyed looking at your car since I first came across it on the earlyS registry and it's evolution back a couple of years ago. It was I thought, a perfect example of an early 911 with just alittle extra on the inside and out. I especially liked the 964 tail , so much I'm looking to possibly do the same. I agree with Chuck about the leaness of the original sleeper you have but then again I think whatever you do will be outstanding as you have shown in the past. BTW I liked your car so much I was going to buy this T but she wanted $18K for it so i gave her my number and told her to call when the price was more in line. Nice car though!!
Mark
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Old 11-12-2002, 02:02 PM
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Jack, I vote for the larger RSR fender coverage. Besides looking great, the additional grip (with less weight) will more than make up for the added wind resistance. It worked for the factory, so it'll work for you as well. Go for it... you'll not regret it. Good luck.
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Old 11-12-2002, 02:18 PM
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