Shopping for my first 911 - what is the price of entry? And other newbie questions

[Otter74]

Hello y'all,

First of all, forgive me for whatever extent to which I end up asking stuff that is in the archives; I have been reading the forum for a couple of weeks now, but I am guaranteed to miss stuff (particularly due to inadequate search-fu.) I ask your forebearance (and links to old threads are fine!)

I have wanted a 911 for my entire life (I'm 40) but it was something that I never thought about very seriously until very recently. I probably should have bought one about 5 years ago (I could have swung it) when everything was more affordable, but hindsight is cheap.

My purpose here is to establish first whether, given my stated conditions, I really have any business buying a 911. (I am talking only of pre-993 cars.) Then, if it is reasonably for me to do so, how to set my priorities.

I currently have three cars - a boring Japanese transportation appliance and two older, cheap cars (an SE-R and a Fiat) that I am very attached to for personal reasons. If I buy a 911, I will be selling the Boringmobile to help fund it, and probably the Fiat too. There are few things that I will willingly give up the Fiat for, but a 911 is one of them (and it would be nice to go down to two cars.)

If I get a 911, it will therefore be my primary car. But this is not to say it will be my daily car - I live in Chicago and rely on my bicycles for almost everything, and mostly use my Boringmobile for out-of-town trips and occasional shopping and suburb runs. I drive about 5-7k miles/year total. I do not rely on my car every day, but I do need to rely on it to be rock solid whenever I need it. I will be giving up practicality (4 doors, back seat, big trunk, Japanese-car maintenance costs) by selling the Boringmobile, but I can live with that if I can get the right car. I will have the SE-R (from the fall or so, once I finish its project list) for some practicality and as a winter car and short-trip.

I suspect an SC would probably be the best car for me. a 3.2 Carrera would be great, but I suspect a nice-enough car will be out of my price range. I am also happy to consider the right mid-year cars. As a reference, the white SC Targa that was recently auctioned on BaT was the car that got me to finally think seriously about whether I can and would buy a 911 (I almost bought that one, but I am *just* too deliberate to be that impulsive) and that price (ca. 22k-23k) is about as much as I would want to spend.

I have done my own maintenance (up to an engine replacement on one car) for years on my cars, and am adept enough mechanically.

In terms of body styles and what I do and don't care about on a car, my ideal has always been a no-tail coupe, but I think I'd actually prefer a Targa since I'll be giving up my convertible. And Targas seem a little cheaper. I am looking for, and would prefer, a driver-quality car. I can't afford a pristine showpiece and don't want to worry about it anyway. I don't care if a car has had a repaint, if the interior is a little worn or the carpets faded or the dash warped. I care only about a really well-sorted and reliable powertrain and chassis. I don't care about color; not even white, which I normally hate.

-Should I consider a 911 as a no-less-than $25k car? That is, whatever of that amount isn't spent on the purchase price will inevitably be spent making things right. Or can I, with patience, knowledge and some luck, get the kind of car I want for $20k or even a bit less? I am not sure I want to spend as much as 25k, but that would be the absolute ceiling. Sub-20 would be great, but I don't know if that's realistic.

-Is a mid-year car worth considering? They are cheaper than SCs, but do not have the stone-cold-reliable reputation that SCs do. However, if the 2.7 has received all the usual updates, is it as reliable as a 3.0?

-If a 2.7 is worth considering, would a really nice 2.7 be preferable for the same money to a slightly less nice or high mileage 3.0? The same question can be asked of a nicer 3.0 over, say, a high mileage 3.2.

-Given that I am new to this, am I asking to get in over my head by buying a car located somewhere else? Should I just wait for the right car to show up locally? I know a good PPI is a must, but there seems to be an inherent risk in buying a car that is not local to you unless I can do it in a city where I have a friend who I can trust to evaluate it for me. Or a city where I have a friend I can go visit and just go check out a car on the same trip.

-I know that maintenance history and documentation is really important, and I gather it is more important than mileage, but should I disconsider high-mileage cars, say over 150k miles? There are well-maintained 200k SCs and Carreras out there that I can afford, but maybe that is high enough mileage that it only seems affordable and I will get eaten alive replacing suspension bits, etc. because they are worn out.

-Is there a bike rack that will work on a Targa? I carry a bike with me every time I go on a trip.

-As an example, what about, say, a car like this: 1977 Porcshe 911 S Targa Convertable brand new Motort

-Or, from this forum, this one? FS: 1979 SC Targa

The latter seems like the kind of car that would suit me very well *if* it passed a PPI without any major needs.

I will surely think of some more questions, but I would appreicate whatever y'all have to share, or wherever you may point me. I would love a 911 - I have wanted one for almost literally my entire life (I'm 40), but I'm not going to do it unless I can do it sensibly within the amount of money I have to spend (low 20s, 25 max) without getting myself into trouble.

thanks,
David

[Speed Buggy]

Hi David, I registered my first and only, so far, on my 40 th birthday. I have a 1981 SC. I didn't know about PPIs since I found this board after my purchase. Ive done a lot of work. I've loved most of it. Good luck with the hunt. I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on your questions except to say pay for the PPI. Cheers, Mike.

[Westy]

Nowadays, I don't think you can get a car for 20k that you could trust and that you wouldn't have to put a lot of money into. Matt and COLB would be better suited to answer this question, but it's pretty easy to dump 10k into a car and sill not be close to being done. There was a lot of discussion about that white w/red SC on BAT. Personally, I think it was a piece. Others here thought it was a steal. And there ya go. Opinions are like....well.....you get the idea!!

[Drisump]

It is my observations of the market that probably your expectations are too high for your budget. I've seen a couple of really good deals but honestly, they were at least the $ you're talking, but needed some work. It seems for every car for sale there are numerous lookers....it's hard to get an exceptional deal in such an environment. Cheers

[77Targa0912]

Mid-Years 74-77 are good cars and with the right updates just as solid as a SC. 74 and 77 are the best years. 74 do rust, but they have the simplest CIS system and the early exhaust. 77 are pretty much a narrow body SC with a 2.7 and power brakes. Usually don't rust due to fully body galvanization.

$25,000 is the entry point for a car that needs a little TLC which could be cosmetic, mechanical, or both. You should budget another $5-10k for future needs. Your other choice is getting the right car for $30-35,000. Color combos and options can make those numbers go up or down.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Otter74

-Or, from this forum, this one? FS: 1979 SC Targa

Something like this would be fine if it passes the big ticket PPI items. I would want to smell the breath of this one first. I like it. It's a little ratty but it puts you in the club. Porsche ownership is like AA. You can be a hedge fund manager or a stock boy at Menard's. Nobody cares. Common ground.

Cosmetics can be tweaked to a level of acceptability without giant dollars. Elbow grease and a few tricks.

[sugarwood]

Driver quality is one thing, but if you buy a very trashed rough 911, it will cost you a lot more to get it to the same condition as just buying one that is already nice.
So, if you buy a rough one, I would not try to restore it. Just drive it.

Why is $25k your ceiling? Do you not physically have $30k? Or is it just some personal arbitrary number? If you bought a $30k car, you have a superior product, and are just parking some extra dollars in the car which you will recoup when you sell. So who cares about the price, as long as you're getting a fair deal. The upside is you will own a nicer car that entire time. Or you save for another 9 months while shopping around.

Your best bet is to start looking at ones for sale. This will show you the various conditions these cars are in. This will help you learn what to look for if you buy a remote car.

If you buy the car, and decide it's not for you, don't forget you can sell it within a week or two.

[Westy]

^^^^^^While I mostly agree with this, if he waits 9 months, the way this crazy market is going, 30k might not even get a car as 'good' as that BaT car. Always a crap shoot. Hard to say. I'm not trying to convince the OP of what to do with his money, but I don't think 40k will buy a well sorted out car a year from now. But then I'm old, tired, and have been known to be wrong on occasion...................I remember once back in 1974,,,,um,,,,well,,,,never mind!

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

So, if you buy a rough one, I would not try to restore it. Just drive it.

+1

Shine it, take care of it, drive it.

Rough/ratty is relative. Shiny and running well goes a long ways.

[Last911]

I personally looked for a Galvanized body car, with 3.0 (or larger) engine. The 2.7 is just too wonky and the 3.0 is just so incredible that there is no point going down that road. Especially since Porsche rebuilds cost so much.

Also, it was a small thing for me, but important, I REALLY wanted a 911 VIN car so when my 79 SC came up, I jumped on it!

[faverymi]

Originally Posted by Last911

I personally looked for a Galvanized body car, with 3.0 (or larger) engine. The 2.7 is just too wonky and the 3.0 is just so incredible that there is no point going down that road. Especially since Porsche rebuilds cost so much.

Also, it was a small thing for me, but important, I REALLY wanted a 911 VIN car so when my 79 SC came up, I jumped on it!

You should probably try to drive a properly built and tuned 2.7. Nothing wonky there.

[jeffbottman]

Be sure to keep a close eye on our sister forum: cars for sale. I watch postings, and about once a month a way-below market posting appears, and the car is sold with an hour or so. So, if you know the market, occasionally a deal comes up. But you are up against all the flippers and used car dealers out there. With a little patience you may find a steal.

Porsche Cars For Sale - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by faverymi

You should probably try to drive a properly built and tuned 2.7. Nothing wonky there.

Valid point.

Do you have a 2.7, Hermey?

Yo, Dawg. Bumbles Bounce!

[spidklr]

I took the leap back in the fall, but with the help of GIANT amounts of good luck/karma/whatever it was. I had had one eye on a friend's decent 100k mile driver, and knew he took care of it. After some research I found I really wanted a later car - G50, hydraulic clutch 3.2, etc. And I am a sucker for the Targa, always have been. That's exactly what he had, and when he decided to sell I pounced on it. It just seemed like fate.

It's been great, but the things I took away:

1. I personally would not want to deal with the hidden rust I see on some of these project cars, and for me a galvanized-or-later year would be much more important than the pedigree of the older cars.

2. The G50 adds some value/cost, but cars from the 1980s do not seem to be as inflated in price (yet?). They are definitely still "pure" enough for me to be in LOVE with this car. Maybe consider a later year.

3. Keep some money aside for the inevitable fixes. Even though my friend took good care of the car, it ran well and I drove it 1200 miles the day after I bought it, from CO to AL, there were - there always are - those things that need fixing, and it's less painful if you go in with that in the budget. I was able to say, "I'll pay x for the car and y each year to fix it." In my case year 1 meant oil change, tires, battery, two oil lines, a headlight, misc. bulbs, alternator, clutch master cylinder, pedal box rebuild, belts. Would not want that to be a surprise expense.

[pmax]

Otter,
I would avoid the 2.7 cars, unless it's fully sorted in which case it's probably beyond your budget. With the SC's , you are more likely to find a better car at the similar price point. I prefer the 80-83 SC's due to the closed loop lambda control of the air fuel ratio. Earlier CIS systems do not support that.

You also mentioned being able to drive it anytime. Just bear in mind Targa's might not be ideal on rainy days. If you do buy a targa, make sure the top's in good shape. They aren't cheap.

Hope this helps ...

[Otter74]

Thank you all for the informed replies. I am realistic (I think so, anyway) about what I would gaining and losing by buying a 911. My Se-R and Fiat are my cheap project cars, and my Honda is my reliable transportation with low cost of maintenance. I do think I can find a 911 that is reliable transportation, but I will certainly be ending up with a car that requires more maintenance, and costs more to maintain, than a Honda. This is something I accept and factor into the price of admission. Certainly I expect I'd be spending a certain amount per year on maintenance but I want to buy the best car I can afford so I can minimize this. This is why I care about mechanicals more than cosmetics. So cars that some of you consider slightly ratty are perfectly fine with me. The snoringmobile is. 2004 accord with 50k and this is by far the newest and lowest mileage car I've driven in ages, since I got my SE-R new in 1993. I am used to older cars and the wear associated with them.

Re: Targas in cold or wet weather, top seal integrity is something I'm keeping in mind. I hope to have my SE-R done by October and when it is I can drive that for winter use, etc. generally, I sometimes drive in the city for special occasions or shopping, but I can easily go a month or more without touching my car. I still ride my bike when it's -15f outside, so I think I can handle a Targa in cold weather

I am certainly not averse to later 3.2 cars and G59 granny's, but they seem to cost more than SCs so I've assumed I can find a nicer SC for what I want to spend. No matter what I buy, I absolutely do not want to deal with rust. I already have to deal with it on my Fiat.

I tend to be very very deliberate with spending decisions, and the bigger they are the more deliberate I am, but I do get the sense that if I wait til next yea I won't be a able to afford it at all. My 25k figure is basically my sense of the limit of what I want to spend when I factor in what I will get for my Honda and maybe the fiat. The real cost advantage to selling the fiat is not so much what I get for it but being able to go to two cars and eliminate the monthly cost of my 2nd garage without having to street park one car, which I absolutely hate doing.

the purchase cost will come straight out of the bank and I have the cash for a $30k car, but I just don't think it's smart for me to spend that much. OTOH if that 30k car was worth 40k or more in a year or two it would not be so bad from an investment standpoint, but even though values seem to be going only up, I don't think that this is a decision that should be made from an investment standpoint. If I were focused on investments, I'd probably be better off dumping more in my Vanguard funds for the longer term or buying a house for the short to medium term. I think I should make a purchase decision because I love the car and want to drive one; if I get my money back or come out ahead whenever I sell it, well then that's just gravy.

As fr as dumping money into a car goes, I care about mechanics but less about cosmetics. I can live with cosmetics that some would consider ratty pretty much indefinitely.

I have been motioning the for sale forum for a couple of weeks now. Does anyone else have any opinions on that white 79 SC I linked to? What about a car like this one, which another poster linked to in one of the market threads?
1974 Porsche 911 for Sale | ClassicCars.com | CC-572102
It's alluringly cheap, but that makes me think it's just going to require 10k of work to be really reliable. I am learning as much as I can, but I do not know these cars well enough to be able to evaluate one myself and make a good call. That, I suppose, is what the expertise of this forum is for

David

[Noah930]

In your price range ($20-25K), I'd be impressed if you could find a good air-cooled 911. Not that you couldn't stumble onto a steal, but most decent cars seem to be >$30K these days. I'd think a lot of them in that price range would be somewhat ratty. Even if you know your way around tools and don't mind tired cosmetics, IMO the fun of these cars is in the driving, not the wrenching. You might get disillusioned with 911 ownership if you had to constantly work on your car. There have been others on Pelican who have gone down this route.

At the same time, a couple months ago I came across a 964 on Craigslist that was around $20K. I was looking for a 964, but wasn't interested in a cabriolet with 4WD and a Tiptronic transmission (3 strikes for me). But if I was, that would have been perfect.

Is it blasphemy for me to suggest that you look at 996s? You can certainly get a lot of car for $20-25K.

[Westy]

^^^^That's a good call I didn't even think of. A 996 with the IMS and RS done,,,maybe even the AOS. That would be a great car for the money, and there's a ship load of them for sale.

[wildthing]

Go to the Off Topic Forum and find "The affordable 996 thread"...

[Otter74]

Originally Posted by Noah930

Is it blasphemy for me to suggest that you look at 996s? You can certainly get a lot of car for $20-25K.

Not blasphemy, but they just don't interest me. If it's not an air cooled 911, it's just another sports car and I might as well get a 914 or a 944 Turbo or something.

I do agree with you on driving vs wrenching. I've got a car to wrench on - this is a car I would maintain as needed but want to drive, not wrench on.